The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships
Welcome to The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships Podcast, hosted by me Alexander Mallon along with my co host Sheila G.
A Certified Astrologer and Intuitive who has practiced for over 47 years, I offer Consulting and Counseling Services to a broad clientele, from business leaders to entrepreneurs to teachers and more.
This podcast is about exploring how and why we are ‘astro-genetically’ bonded to our parents, and how our own birth chart is a map of this powerful 'soul-birthing' moment for our entire family. Astrological birth charts are a mirror of the Soul, highlighting hidden themes and revealing our Sacred Karmic Lessons.
Each episode will address our family relationships and family themes, as well as how we relate to our spouses, friends, co-workers and other relationships in our world.
Alexander will be sharing interviews and stories from fellow astrologers, as well as audience members who wish to participate. We will periodically draw names to invite viewers and listeners to have a mini review of their charts during future broadcasts.
To enter our drawing, please email us a screen capture of your review on our Podcast or YouTube channel at info@astrologyspirit.com. Participants will be chosen via a monthly drawing.
We look forward to sharing and learning together with you all, and may the Stars guide your way on.
The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships
The Mystique of Manolete: An Astrological Review of Spain's Famed Bullfighter
In this riveting episode of the Astrology of Family, Karma, and Relationships Podcast, we delve into the captivating life story of Manolete, the legendary Spanish bullfighter esteemed for his remarkable talent and tragic end.
Join us as hosts Alexander and special guest Astrologer Timothy Nielsen unwrap the astrological influences that defined this iconic figure’s path—from his emotionally influenced childhood to his meteoric rise as a national hero.
Through exploring Manolete's astrological chart, we uncover the rich interplay between destiny and free will, revealing how early family ties and cultural expectations shaped his individuality. Themes of vulnerability, courage, and legacy punctuate our discussion, drawing on insights from Hillman’s philosophical frameworks while maintaining an accessible, relatable perspective.
Listen as we analyze the key astrological Transits surrounding pivotal moments in Manolete’s life and the intricate web of influences that led up to his highly publicized death in the arena. The podcast takes a thought-provoking lens on how shared experiences within families resonate across generations, exploring how identity and legacy intertwine in the unfolding of one's destiny.
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~Alexander can be contacted for Consultation and Coaching sessions. You may contact him via his email: info@astrologyspirit.com or website: https://www.astrologyspirit.com/
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Thank you for listening!
Alexander & Sheila
So welcome once again, folks, to the Astrology of Family, karma and Relationships podcast. I'm your host, alexander Mallon, and today we have again our special guest astrologer a special guest host, astrologer Tim Nielsen. So thank you, tim, for joining us. It's really great to have you again.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Alexander.
Speaker 1:Tim was a magnificent astrologer, as you'll come to again experience a brilliant, brilliant writer. I'm going to put up Tim. I'm going to put up your website here in a moment for people to come check out your writings. You're a very prolific writer, deep writer, thoughtful writer, and you'll see, Tim's got a lot going and including we were just chatting as we were getting the program going here that you also studied under Noel Till, who was one of the great luminaries of Western astrology.
Speaker 2:Agreed, had the good fortune to study with Noel, to get to know him and to appreciate not only his approach in astrology but how he embraced other domains to enrich his astrology.
Speaker 1:Well, we're going to do some programs, hopefully and some of these greats and Noel will be one, obviously for you to kind of help introduce more people to Noel's incredible work. So a little business first, as we get rolling here. So today, tim, our topic, the topic that you brought to us to explore and this is your slideshow about to be shown in a moment, entitled Torero the Astrology of a Bullfighter, a radial exploration of that topic, of this phenomenal bullfighter, manolete. So before that, let's get to a little bit of business. Folks, this podcast is still pretty new, just a few months old, half a year thereabouts and, of course, for search engines to find the podcast, so other people can tag on, we need to have your subscriptions. So if you haven't subscribed, please, please, do subscribe. We'd love to have you follow our podcast on apple and spotify youtube channel and subscribe, please. Those subscriptions do count. They get those, uh, those computers to find that I'm out there so people can find our program. So you gotta, gotta appease those algorithms.
Speaker 1:Uh, tim, it's a key thing, uh, and here is tim, tim's contact, both my website here, wwwastrologyspiritcom, and Timothy's, wwwhudsonvalleyastrologercom. Think of the Hudson Valley, new York, the home of Wood-Ashbury, maybe one, if I can be so poetic to say, is the Hudson Valley these years, hudson Valley, New York. So, tim, wwwhudsonvalleyastrologercom, did you share that?
Speaker 2:slide.
Speaker 1:The slide's up here, not for you to see. If I share it's going to mess up the recording, but I've got it for the audience to see, and I'm going to pass the torch to you and your slideshow, please. So we're going to talk about the chart of Manoletta, this great bullfighter and maybe also bullfighter John Fulton. We'll come to that, but the show is yours, so you can do a screen share there on your end, tim, whenever you're ready, and I'm not sure, tim, if you have a way of. Oh, there you go, excellent.
Speaker 2:Perfect, perfect. I'm not a Zoom aficionado, so if I stumble around.
Speaker 2:We can just pause and regroup. The topic for this podcast came up, Alexander, because I received your text while I was in a funeral home attending a wake for a family member, and not this past January, but just the January before I experienced a death in the family. I'm one of nine, we're all getting older, but the baby of the family, who was 57 when she passed, died suddenly from an aneurysm in January, and in between her death and my mother-in-law's death, who died this most recent January, just last month, I've probably lost four or five clients who've passed, so there's a lot of eighth house stuff going on. Maybe I should check my perfections, uh, which is not a house perfection, by the way, but, um, I just thought I'd throw that little astrological humor out your way, um, and when you sent me the text, I said, well, why don't we do something on death?
Speaker 2:And I just happened to remember, or recalling, the story that James Hillman shared in his book the Soul's Code about this bullfighter, manolete, and he sourced most of the information from a book that was written in 1958. I think it was recently republished, so there's a more updated version. The Death of Manolete from 1958, I presume, was the book that Hillman referenced, because Hillman's book, the soul's code, was written around 93, 94.
Speaker 1:Um which you might want to just define. Uh, hillman, james Hillman you're referring to?
Speaker 2:James Hillman, famous psychologist. Um, he's the? Um kind of philosophical in nature. People who like him refer to him as the psychologist's psychologist, and I just thought it was interesting that Hillman's book the Soul's Code came out with that epic Uranus-Neptune conjunction in Capricorn in 93. And also so did the 10,000 Maniacs album that had a song, menolete, on it that year. What was the name of that album? Do you recall? Were you a fan?
Speaker 1:uh, I'm, I'm a fan of uh 10 000 maniacs. And and who's the? I think she's a hudson valley. Uh, natalie merchant. Natalie merchant also, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, merchant, rather she's a hudson valley resident, I believe right, the band was from um the buffalo but she did end up in the Hudson Valley. But let me see if I can find the name of that, because it was.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think that, well as you're looking, I did, since you brought this whole topic to review. Yeah, the song that you're referring to, that Natalie Merchant and 10,000 Maniacs recorded, is a pretty well-known song to this famous, famous Spanish bullfighter, manolete, and his life, his legacy, and maybe even his terminus of life, his end of life, which came you'll explain for us in a moment right Came in an interesting and powerful way.
Speaker 2:I'm going to skip the song reference. Well, it is Manolete, and I can't remember the actual name of the, the album, the album. But the interesting part was that that was, um, that that brought out when the soul's cold was published under this epic, uh, conjunction of uranus and neptune, just and just kind of an interesting coincidence or correspondence, I should say. On the first couple of slides, I'm going to buzz through them. They're just kind of space holders to get to the charts and we'll discuss Menelete, who he was, and we'll look at the charts and we'll dive into it. We're not going to go too much into the astrology of bullfighting or the astrology and bullfighting, but make references to it because I think maybe we'll come back.
Speaker 1:Uh, we're not going to sit here for two hours and and talk about all the yeah, so we're, we're looking you and I are sort of kicking around here folks that tim and I might do a couple of programs, because this is some juicy stuff. The theme of uh, of these, these incredible gentlemen, uh, perhaps we'll. Perhaps we'll touch on john fulton today, since we were talking about that in preparation. Bullfighter, bullfighter john fulton. Today, february 20th, uh. Today, february 20th 2025, this is the 27th anniversary of bullfighter john fulton's uh death so there are a couple of powerful things that, and that was completely right, tim.
Speaker 1:That was totally just out of the blue. We didn't know that today that we're doing the show, this is actually John Fulton's date of his death. In fact, you thought it was the 8th when he really had his heart attack. So this is kind of this interesting. I think Carl Jung would be proud of us.
Speaker 2:We're having a secret city happening here. Folks live before your eyes admired Manolete. He was brilliant in his craft and his art. It was in 1917, on July 4. So we'll take a look at the chart in a minute, but from Cordoba, spain, and we're going to see some interesting contradictions, I think might be the right term to use, because when you look at the chart, the question that we have in front of us is how was the person who ultimately ended up being impaled by the horn of a bull? What was the famous bull's name?
Speaker 1:The famous bull was Elero I-S-L-E-R-O Elero.
Speaker 2:Elero being impaled by Elero, I think, the right horn, and it was an equally famous bull.
Speaker 1:right, you're saying Manolete, and it should be two Ts, by the way, manolete was, he is the most famous bullfighter in Spain ever, yeah. Well Is that the case.
Speaker 2:I don't know that he was the most famous. He was certainly the most popular, the most popular, and his funeral drew more attendees than any funeral in history. So you know I've been to a number of funerals in the last year but nowhere near the record-setting people attended. You know that attended Menelete's showed up for any of my family members or, and my sister, had quite quite a few people wrapped around that funeral home. You know, multiple times Menelete was a legend, he was a hero and I think when you see the end of his life, which was only at age 30, you know, different from Fulton right. So he's right, smack dab on the Saturn return, as your listeners know. You know this planet, saturn, comes around approximately every 30 years, depending on retrogrades and where it is in your birth chart 27 years old to 38 and a half to 31 is a Saturn return right.
Speaker 1:Saturn orbits the sun every roughly 30 years is close enough.
Speaker 2:Roughly 30 is a good benchmark, and so um that a saturn return doesn't get any more intense than being impaled by a famous ball. Um so um. I I think that when you look at the life story of Menelete and you look at it as Hillman is suggesting backwards, there is this strong suggestion that he met his destiny the way, when and where he was supposed to leave this earth, and that it was in him. Hillman uses the metaphor of an acorn.
Speaker 2:We're astrologers, we have the benefit of the circle representing the acorn, if you like, but we can look inside, whereas Hillman didn't have that luxury. But we can look inside, whereas, you know, hillman didn't have that luxury. You know, he just waxed and waned, poetic, poetically, and, and and speaks about using imagination to connect these dots, which you know, in some respects, you're, you're doing it, you know after, you know the evidences, you know the horses out of the barn, you know. But there is a powerful construct here that suggests the boy who was very shy and hid behind his mother's skirt apron would later become a hero in Spain, and so he alludes to the young Manoleta imagining that his mother's apron was his cape.
Speaker 1:Wow, his bullfighter's red cape, wow.
Speaker 2:So it's his Right? Wow, his bullfighters, red cape, wow, steered by the fates versus our will. Modern psychology likes us to think and embrace the idea that, you know, that's up to us to decide, and Hillman, I think, is challenging that precept in a pretty convincing manner and, I think, in a way that your listeners would appreciate, alexander, especially when you tie it to. You know concepts like karma, and those sorts of ideas.
Speaker 1:Indeed too, because anyone who knows my work, my clients, certainly students that I've had over the decades, and even any listeners or followers in the last few months that this podcast has existed, you know the more than Vedic astrology that we are co-creating our world, that our birth chart is a descriptor of kind of the acorn of the self, but that consciousness and our mindful awareness has some governance, not only, let's say, genetics or the acorn fate, or say spiritual fate, maybe karma, perhaps. But this Western idea that we are concurrent and co-creative, it's a very Western astrological concept, maybe even in contrast, even though spirituality, karma, the idea of the Vedantic scripture going back 5,000 to 10,000 years, clearly is spiritual. The application of astrology for a Western mind is you know, I'm driving the car, I'm in charge of myself, so you're saying that Hillman is kind of challenging that sort of ego or sun, really astrologically, sun-driven chart.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So this slide about Menelites.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll see. This is just not even barely a sketch. We'll see on the chart, when we get to it, major points in the life and we can go through and delineate more. But, especially for Menelete, you'll see that the IC is a very powerful point in his chart for some reason. The past, sometimes new beginnings in other times. So we'll touch on, you know, the measurements that came to mind when I was, you know, going through his acorn, which you know I love that you use the word spirit, I was thinking soul.
Speaker 2:I think that's where Hillman goes. He calls it the soul's code. It's his metaphor of an imprinting the soul imprints on the personality to some degree, which I can get completely behind. That as I am, yeah, which I can get completely behind that, um, as I as I am, yeah, my, my embrace of karma is is a little different. I I feel like it's a dated concept, uh, and uh really needs to be updated and uh, especially in terms of, like you know, know, bad karma versus good karma, that kind of stuff and debts and things. I'm not entirely on board with that sort of thing that works for people, you know, and that can sometimes help them understand issues that they've not been able to unravel any other way, and so that kind of perspective.
Speaker 1:Well, there is certainly. In Menelete's chart there's a powerful sun south node. Astrologers in the west and east both look at the nodes of the moon being karmic points. So we'll be tackling that, I think, a little bit, and perhaps, if it's okay, Tim, for the sake of the listeners who are not watching us on YouTube, may I read the gist of this slide that talks about.
Speaker 2:Manolete and his early life in Beckham.
Speaker 1:I forgot that some people might be on the radio On listening, listening, yeah. So here we have a slide, folks. It says Manoleta the bullfighter and his early life background, his birth and early years. Manoleta was born in 1917 in Cordoba, Spain. Yes, Family deeply embedded in the bullfighting tradition.
Speaker 2:Meaning that his father was a bullfighter.
Speaker 1:Well, so he's a lineage of bullfighters, but probably somewhat famous bullfighters, people who had chops, people who were acknowledged as being gifted and, as you say in Spain, there's a certain degree of fame of cultural I mean Spanish cultural bullfighting, cultural hub.
Speaker 2:Not to go too far with the metaphor, but I mean, in our country the closest you would get to a famous bullfighter would be, you know, michael Jordan.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's a great thank you. Different bull, different bull, or maybe a football quarterback? Okay, so the slide continues. Folks, it says family influence. Growing up in a bullfighting family, manoleta was inspired by the culture and traditions of bullfighting from a very young age. His training in bullfighting happened in his formative years, which were spent training and learning the art of bullfighting, which defined his future career. So I don't know if you want to kick another slide in there for us.
Speaker 2:Well, chicago Bulls yeah, so so yeah basketball reference. He is the Michael Jordan of Spain. He was the Michael Jordan of Spain, you know, and our basketball hero in this country, which has changed many times over since, you know, played for the Bulls. So kind of funny. His legacy, I think, is about how he changed the old styles and renewed the ideals of bullfighting Corrida. I don't know if I pronounced that right.
Speaker 2:And yet he was a timid and fearful boy. So that's the point that I'm fascinated by is how this little boy, who hid behind the skirt apron of his mother, afraid so much so that friends and family made fun of him.
Speaker 1:The last thing he wanted to do was play Torara, when he only wanted to paint and read. So I'm kind of leaping ahead. The fellow students of astrology will be surprised that this super famous bullfighter, this courageous man who hid behind his mom's skirt, was a Cancerian. Yeah, he wasn't a Taurian or an Aries personality that many of us might think with a bullfighter. He was a Cancerian.
Speaker 2:And here you can see the chart. Yes, now, okay. So so, jumping into the chart and in the way that I break down, the horoscope is first into quadrants and and I I do a fair amount of work on sun-moon blends and I actually didn't even look up oh, I kind of know that the Cancer-Jupiter combination, so I don't even have to look that up.
Speaker 1:The Cancer-Sun-Jupiter.
Speaker 2:First, what I would look at is the emphasis that's below the horizon. You know the traditional astrologers would call it a night chart. I just look at whether the chart leans to the east, leans to the west, leans to the south, which is above the horizon, or leans to the north, which is below the horizon, down towards the fourth house. And this chart has a distinct impression. Sometimes what I'll do is I'll draw a big arc around that just to kind of make that emphasis, to help draw the eye of the client there.
Speaker 2:And it suggests to me a fair amount of suppression in the individual, undoubtedly related to unfinished business. In the early home life which we know, there was plenty of reason for Manolete to have, you know, become reticent and withdrawn and, you know, to back away and into a self-protected mode. And that's indeed what he did and what the descriptions Conrad provides in his detailed description of the personality as a child, which is so rich for us as astrologers to learn from. And that beginning is somehow overcome, where this man, as he comes of age, becomes a national hero, which is truly a remarkable transformation.
Speaker 1:Which I wonder, by coincidence sometimes there are these coincidences, or sometimes maybe it's typical with astrology right, the Manoletta's's day, month and year again July 4th of 1917. And for, uh, for our us Americans, you know that that day of July 4th is a kind of a you know a notable, noteworthy date. Uh, of course I don't think there's any you know any correlation whatsoever between Manoleta's life and, you know, the United States. But probably you know kind of a 19th, 20th century, 19th 20th century bullfighter that we in the States might have been aware of him because he was such a superhero, right.
Speaker 1:He might have been one of the first that the United States would have. You know the media. I mean you're talking about, let's say, television, you know. So he was one of the very first bullfighters to be broadcast. You know the media. I mean you're talking about, let's say, television. So he was one of the very first bullfighters to be broadcast, you know so, yeah, I'm just thinking.
Speaker 2:And we'll see and I don't know this, but we'll see if in some way he was a draw for Fulton.
Speaker 1:For the bullfighter.
Speaker 2:Fulton If he influenced.
Speaker 1:Fulton yeah Fulton. Who, if he influenced Fulton yeah Fulton, who was born in Philadelphia.
Speaker 2:In addition to the things you discovered about Fulton, you know, by way of Mexico, getting to, you know, into the sport, which really, from their view, is an art which is interesting to think about because it's involving death. And when we look at Menelete's chart, with a very intense Mercury and Pluto conjunct, pluto ruling the eighth house of transformation, of transformation, there is an inkling there that he's going to take a stand. He's, he's going to uh have an incisive, um, keen awareness of his environment and he's going to test his opinions um, until he uh transforms his mindset somehow, um to come out from underneath his mother's uh skirt apron, which is, you know, we know, in a way we're cheating because we're looking backwards via hillman's approach, but uh, we, we know, in fact he does that, um and uh, he overcomes the inhibitions, I think, that are sometimes cancerian to a fault, not always, I mean, we can see that cancer public exhibition sometimes come out, you know. But in this case, you know, eventually it does, but in this case, in the beginning, he was in his shell.
Speaker 1:You know it has me thinking. Well, there are two things I'd like to say here for the listener and for the and do for the viewer. I think I can do this, although I don't, unfortunately. Our Tim and I, as Tim said, we're both challenged you, we're both boomers, I guess, at this point. So it's hitting us like we're not 20 anymore and so technology is not our. It doesn't roll off our fingertips here. So patience, folks. But I just want to quickly see if I can reduce this screen and show Put it back no show, which I'm doing successfully here, thank you God.
Speaker 1:So here, through a different. This is the astrology program that a lot of pros use solar fire. So in my solar fire program that's up on the screen, half screen you and I are there and we see that Pluto. At the bottom of the chart for Manaletta we see Mercury at one degree of Cancer, conjunct four degree Pluto, conjunct the Nadir at 10 degrees, conjunct the 10 degree South Node in Cancer, conjunct an 11 degree Sun in Cancer. There's a whole big stellium from Mercury through Sun and Venus in Cancer at 29, venus to Saturn at one and Neptune at three Leo. A whole big grouping. Saturn at one and Neptune at three Leo, a whole big grouping.
Speaker 1:But as you said, tim, the bottom of Menelete's chart is very powerfully just full with planets and we have to look at this chart with the moon approaching the north node at the top of the sky. In other words, that night Menelete was born near midnight and if we took someone out for a proverbial cigar, if we were there at Manoleta's birth, we'd go out and we would see this beautiful full moon, a nearly full moon. He was a full moon baby and born during a lunar eclipse. Manoleta was born during an eclipse. I don't want to steal your thunder. I'm sure it's something you were percolating right when you came to me with this chart, but it's a powerful visual here. So, going back to your slideshow, that shows a couple of key things. You've circled. You circled Manas, the sun at the bottom. You circled Uranus. You're highlighting the Mercury-Pluto.
Speaker 2:I wasn't the thought didn't come to me I would have gotten to the eclipse, I suppose, in a consultation. But what I was doing here, because I just put this together quickly for our chat I wanted to just highlight major events in the life and how they corresponded to the chart and how they tend to echo from that seed, from the acorn you know per Hillman's, you know the resident with the soul, perhaps the sun is tightly conjunct. The nodal axis, which I think it is interesting to think about this in terms of karma. I think of it more in terms of the mother, the nodal axis relating to the moon and the nodal axis very often indicating relationships period, but also late relationships with mother early on. And the mother really became um, quite important to menelete um because the father died here at age five, if you just move mercury mercury to the sun.
Speaker 1:I apologize, no, that's not um. You're saying mercury to pluto. I think is what you're thinking about. Yeah, initially, because you said age five.
Speaker 2:His father died at age five yeah, father, oh, I'm sorry, transiting pluto. Transiting Pluto came across the IC right at the node.
Speaker 1:And conjunct Menelete's sun node conjunction. Your chart doesn't show the south node. This chart over here I have the south node right within a degree, half degree of that sun. So there was a south node sun conjunction in Manoletta's chart.
Speaker 2:That's very significant, Right so I'm a minimalist and to me the south node north node. If I know where the north node is, I know where the south node is, so that's why it's not there. But I was jumping ahead to the. This is a solar arc that I drew here the father's death was transiting Pluto. And is a solar arc that I drew here the father's death was transiting Pluto and there's other measurements, I'm sure. But I just thought it was interesting because this section of his chart just keeps ringing through his life In some of the most important pivotal events in his life, namely one, the death of the father, and two, the introduction and being seen by a mentor at age 11. That's what that arc is, from one cancer to 11. Cancer is the 11 degrees.
Speaker 1:So you were saying one cancer, the mercury you can edit that yeah, that's, that's very human. Things happen. So we didn't, we didn't get that. We just we just saw you sit up, just stand up to take care of something. So you were saying that the mercury at one cancer or something or other.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to follow um, so this is a solar arc, his age 11, and I have it marked right here solar arc. Mercury equals sun. That means that we're advancing mercury to the sun precisely at his age 11, coincident with transiting Jupiter coming to the ascendant, and so I just thought it was interesting.
Speaker 1:Hold on, hold on. I'm confused. What happened at age 11? Age 11, he met his mentor.
Speaker 1:That was a piece I don't think I understood, okay, jose, which, by the way, mercury learning teaching? I don't think I understood, okay, jose, which, by the way, mercury learning teaching coming to solar arc to his son. Solar arc takes a planet and essentially, if we take an arc of age, so I always tell my clients, if you're age 10, you add 10 degrees to every planet in your chart. If you're age 20, you add 10 degrees to every planet in your chart. If you're age 20, you add 20 degrees to every planet in your chart.
Speaker 1:That's a quick and dirty way to do solar arcs. So ergo, in Menelikta's chart, with Mercury at one degree and the Sun at 11, that at age 11 that Mercury comes to his son, Mercury, mercurial teaching and son father figure. Now you'd said that his dad died at age five, but here that Mercury to son conjunction brings another father figure to his life.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, um, and the sun is a little bit slower in the summer. So you know, 57 and change at 59 and 5-7 or whatever, and so you're going to have a slower accumulation of the seconds and the minutes, and so that's why there's a little dissipation, and that would grow over time. So the arcs would be so you can see that 1 to 11 is 10 degrees, but it takes 11 years to cover that space because it's a summer birth.
Speaker 1:The mercury arcs to the sun, adding roughly 10 11 degrees boom.
Speaker 2:The mercury hits the sun right when his mentor came into his life and there's something powerful, and this isn't demonstrating it entirely, but there's something in nesting the solar arcs in a way when they're coincident in time with other transits and progressions. So that's really the reason that I thought this was a useful chart was a useful chart because we could show that we can show one. The IC is getting hit at age five by transiting Pluto Two. The IC is getting hit by solar arc Mercury coincident with transiting Jupiter to the Ascendant. It's a very nice, clean, simple way to communicate that concept.
Speaker 1:There is something else interestingly. Now I'm going to for the viewers I'm going to see something. Unfortunately, tim, I can't show you technologically, but since that Mercury is one degree and Pluto is four degrees, they're three degrees separate. So it would imply at age three there is something involving Pluto, plutonian themes, death or resurrection or you know, death and dying, or family concerns. We don't have the facts yet, we've got to do a little more research. Perhaps somebody in his family when he was three might have, or two or three might have had something happen for him.
Speaker 1:But you know it does bring up those early years as Mercury, by solar arc progression, one degree per year of life. Here it says at age three or maybe four, you've got to, you've got to give an orb. Astrologers talk about giving an orb a degree either side of an event astrologically, because astrology I always say, tim, since I'm a backyard astronomer astrology is not a perfect science. You know astrologers want to make it so but I don't think it will ever be a perfect mathematical that Mercury hits that Pluto. It should be age 3, age 4.
Speaker 2:On that note, flip it back and let's look at the chart again. I'm back with you, Because in fact, Saturn does arc to Neptune at age two. Yes, menelete almost died of pneumonia.
Speaker 1:And Mercury, by the way, governs the process.
Speaker 2:I could imagine that there were Mercury rules breathing.
Speaker 1:Say again Mercury rules breathing. So his solar arc, mercury, goes to his Pluto. He almost dies of a lung issue, of pneumonia.
Speaker 2:Well, the way I was reading, that is that for sure. But uh, here neptune rules the um 12th cusp, pisces is, uh, ruled by neptune. So rules the 12th cusp Saturn, which can also represent death. And you know, the grim reaper comes to Neptune, and this is critical illness. This is critical illness, but the opposite end of the 12th house, or the 12th house cusp, is the 6th house cusp, ruled by Mercury. Mercury coming to Pluto suggests that this is the rehabilitation phase and him dealing with this condition, this, the the lung condition, probably would stay with him for some time.
Speaker 1:Right. Saturn is chronic, chronic, takes a long time. So interestingly we're saying Mercury rules his sixth house of health, acquired health concerns. Mercury, by solar arc direction, comes to his Pluto. Pluto can be death and dying and Pluto also governs viruses, by the way. So Pluto governs viruses. So Mercury comes to Pluto when he has pneumonia. Saturn comes by solar arc direction to his Neptune when he contracts pneumonia. Neptune governs bacterium and similar and Pluto governs viruses. They can flip sometimes, but either way there's two major solar arc directions here that in uh Fulton's chart when he had his heart attack.
Speaker 2:Uh, his um 12th house is ruled by Leo, uh, and you know his son came under significant pressure, uh. So that kind of lines up. But I may be eating my words because I think I might have had the wrong date, so we'll go back the wrong year. I had the wrong year plugged in so I'm going to have to buy that back. But oftentimes, oftentimes, the Leo rulership of the 12th house cusp does point to that area of health, as you know, being more critical than, say, aquarius, which would be on the six house cusp in that instance, and problems with your ankles.
Speaker 1:Well, so you're pointing out that in Manilet's chart the Pisces is on the cusp of the 12th. Neptune rules there for the 12th and so when that Saturn, by solar arc, comes to his Neptune, it could trigger a real, severe health crisis which almost indeed did take his life. This is powerful astrology. People don't know that these techniques can be so exacting. Something as simple as a solar arc that Saturn at one degree, the Neptune at three, two degree difference between it says age two. There could be a life-threatening disease. Saturn to the Neptune and the Mercury to the Pluto, both.
Speaker 1:And by the way, I wanted to jump in here too and say that before Pluto was discovered in 1930, saturn was the bringer of death. In other words, saturn's orbit, every 30 years you have a first Saturn return age 30,. Second Saturn return age 60, third and final Saturn return, for most of us, age 90. But Pluto, when we discover Pluto, suddenly the god of the underworld. So Pluto has a pertinent issue, a pertinent connection to death. And, as you said when you opened the show, manoleta has his south node-sun conjunction, conjunct the Pluto and conjunct the Mercury. So Pluto is with that south node in the sun. There's a Pluto theme and one Pluto theme his dad dies at age five, when Manoleta's age five. It's a big Pluto theme about death. This man, this famous bullfighter, whose entire career is about being a sort of what was it? Who was the one that that was, uh, taking us across the river styx? I forget the the mythic god, but he's sort of. You know, he's a pluto figure, certainly, right yeah, and promethean too.
Speaker 1:Rising from his hell.
Speaker 2:Well, that Uranus is not really aspecting any planets. When I go through the chart, his sun is unaspected and Uranus is unaspected, and I tighten up the orbs purposefully to illuminate those instances where the planets are unaspected, to give me a little bit more information. And so, in in this um diagram, I'm looking at your, the the um, iconoclastic um rebel, who also is um, dissociated from, uh, from people, and so it's his way of connecting became with the crowds at the arena, and the other. How do I go back? Let's see, we can't miss this. This is the Quindichili, and so his mind is on fire and it's piping in.
Speaker 1:You're pointing for the listener. You're pointing at his Mars in Gemini in the second house, aspecting his moon, and you gave a specific hint here, or more than an aspect. Can you fill us in about that, tim?
Speaker 2:The Quindichilli is a favorite aspect Noel liked to use. He talks about discovering it, but he really rediscovered it.
Speaker 1:And can you tell us what's the aspect degree, please?
Speaker 2:He rediscovered it in the libraries of Germany and the aspect degree is just 15 degrees shy of a opposition, so it's 165 degree aspect Mars at 13 Gemini, and across from, directly across from that point, is 13 degrees Sagittarius, and so if you add 15 degrees that brings you to about 28 degrees Sagittarius. His moon's at 29. So that's within the orb, that's within the orb of the Kundachili, and it's very powerful because, remember, he's got all these planets lined up in cancer. So, um, can't, cancer is ruled by the moon, uh, and is dispositing all of these, um planets, you know, leading them in a way or or um. How would you, alexander, describe what disposite means?
Speaker 1:So my understanding of dispositorship is when a planet is occupying a sign which it has to a sign of the zodiac, and that that sign of the zodiac will be ruled or governed by a ruling planet. Ergo, the sign of Cancer, that is, let's say, july. So the sign of Cancer, aka the sun's moving in front of the stars, of know birth, the ancients used the crab, the animal, the totem for cancer, the crab, as the totem animal for this sign, not because the star pattern looks at all like a crab, but because it's the season of the crab. July is the month when a crab will give birth to 500,000 young, 500,000, live young. So the ancients said what animal totem would talk about summertime birthing? Oh, a crab. It's perfect, you know. And so the animal totem, the crab, giving birth, fecundity, family and fecundity, that's Cancerian.
Speaker 1:And they say that, of course, the planet that the ancients gave to govern or rule Cancer is the moon. And why the moon? Because of women's moon cycles. It is a 29 and a half day orbit for the moon and since astrology is all about astronomical psych astrology is astronomy right. It's the human experience of these cycles. And so the moon cycle, the moon cycle, rules uterus, it rules birthing, right? So cancer is about birthing and family. And he has that cancer at the bottom of his chart, the nest, the home of the chart, and he was saying he was very attached to mommy.
Speaker 2:Very attached.
Speaker 1:So the dispositorship is that cancer planets here, his son namely, is ruled by the moon and the moon's placement therefore would be really important. And his moon is on the cusp of entering the opposing sign of cancer Capricorn, the wintertime sign of Capricorn. His moon is in the wintertime sign of Sag. The moon is at that almost zero point. The moon is almost at the point of the winter solstice, zero degrees Capricorn, late, late Sag. And you're saying the aspect which I Tim, you totally got me on this one. I never studied Till's stuff but Quindichile, I know you've told me and been teaching me for a while and I'm still kind of, you know, I'm still working it to absorb the Quinta Chile. And I was going to ask you, can you help me in the audience understand this? In Manolete's chart it's tying into the moon, it's tying into the moon.
Speaker 2:You did a beautiful overview of the seasonal connections and, symbolically, with the moon ruling, the sun, and I love that 500 births at a time, the fecundity aspect, but there's also the aspect of you know working to come out of one shell. There's also the aspect of you know working to come out of one's shell and feeling the necessity of self-protection, all these things that people who don't study astrology describe Menelite as actually exhibiting and his inhibition and all of those things as a young boy and yet he's got this very adventurous, wanting to go out. One of the things that we're going to talk about is the Aries point and you just referenced it. It's the zero cardinal sign and it's not just the Aries, zero degrees, aries, it's zero degree, any cardinal sign which, in effect, manolete had. But because it's still there in Sagittarius, there's a Jupiterian draw and pull and it's in its natural house, jupiter ruling Sag.
Speaker 1:Jupiter ruling his moon. So you say the dispositorship of the moon is Jupiter. Jupiter disposes of his moon. So it's complicated, well, and more important, his moon is in the outer part of the chart. Yes, like, astronomically, what's the highest, most elevated planet in Menelete's chart? The moon. What's the most elevated planet in the chart is what the public sees of us and Menelete's chart has the moon. The most elevated planet in the chart is what the public sees of us and Manaletta's chart has the moon most elevated and the north node of the moon, the part of Dharma. I call it In the West we call it Dharma and in Vedic they call it Karma. But there is a karmic, fatalistic piece of that moon north node. And the north node is exactly, by degree, conjunct Manaleta to the minute. In fact, the north node is exactly conjunct Meneleta's mid-haven to the minute 10 degrees, capricorn 44. That north node and that mid-haven, the highest point of the zodiac, the highest point of the zodiac astronomically for the observer. That moon is right there too, a big, beautiful, almost full moon, in fact, that day, a big, beautiful, full moon, lunar eclipse, moon. And what's the reference point all of us in today, 2025, have to those who've got a moon, sun, who were born during a lunar eclipse.
Speaker 1:Donald Trump, born during a lunar eclipse. And what does that lunar eclipse astronomically mean? It means that we have a full moon, the sun on one side of the sky, the moon opposite and the earth in between. So the earth's shadow during a lunar eclipse occults or cloaks the moon. So the material earth cloaks the emotion, cloaks the feeling state. I mean here you said he's a kid, manolete a cancer, an emotional, family-oriented kid who's hiding behind mom's skirt tails, right, you said, very feeling, very emotional, and yet he spends his career butchering animals, live in front of an audience. I mean that's pretty, one wouldn't expect that. But here he's, born during a lunar eclipse and his emotions are in some way sacrificed. Donald Trump, born during a lunar eclipse. The material planet Earth, the shadow of the Earth, covers that lunar eclipse moon symbolically, but I'm just throwing that out.
Speaker 2:I mean astronom, astronomically, it's the case well, I mean, the sun moon combination is fascinating to study just on its own yeah in some charts the sun moon blend can represent up to 70% of the personality.
Speaker 2:Wow, based on the work that I've done, it seems to hold true In some cases up to 70%. That doesn't mean everybody's like 60% to 70%, but in those instances where that sun, moon, the core that's why my nickname on Instagram is astral core right, and that's that premise. You know, everything else is gingerbread and we make too much of you know where's your Venus. I mean it's important, it's not unimportant. But I think one of the things, especially in the conceptual framework that Hillman's talking about, this soul, this acorn, you know it's almost beyond grasp. We're just kind of scratching at the shell of it with astrology in some respects and if we have the humility to allow for that, I think that can enrich our astrology.
Speaker 1:So I mean, I would see, and you're educating us, bringing Hellman's work and your study of Hellman's work to this chart, and so I'm going to ask you it's kind of a little banter here, but I so to me that moon-Midhaven-North Node conjunction, the Mercury-Pluto-South Node-Sun conjunction, it's an undeniably powerful part of this guy's chart. His sun sign ruled by the moon, the moon. He's born just before a lunar eclipse. That day of a lunar eclipse, I don't know if it was even visible from Europe when he was born, but which would be another interesting phenomenon, because the ancient astrologer would certainly have noticed such a thing. So when you say some charts like 70% can be powerfully, you know that 70% of the person's character can be powerfully mirrored by a lunar cycle. We're all born during some phase of the moon. But you're saying that this chart of all charts tells me this is a really powerful lunar chart.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and even with the nodes not there, this cancer-sadge combination is driven to be influential. But because of the observations that you added on, I think adds to the case, and because there is the Mars in Gemini, quindichilli, the moon that's supercharging, that moon, with an obsessive compulsiveness, really gives the timid fearful boy some teeth timid fearful boys, some teeth right, and and that moon that needs to um affect the way other people think and think about him, is going to receive that um, that fire on the mind is what I called it earlier.
Speaker 1:And that moon in the outer, that full moon, the full moon had an eclipse that night or the night after, but that full moon of his birth, or nearly full moon, he was born at midnight. So the moon is overhead, the Moon is astronomically supercharged and he was born. Furthermore, he was born with a Moon and Mercury. I'm going back between charts that I can highlight the Moon and Mercury. Both they're opposite to each other almost by degree. Each of those planets, the Moon and Mercury, were out of bounds by declination. Both the Moon and Mercury were out of bounds by declination, and out of bounds means that the Moon was running particularly low to the horizon, so like a headlight coming at you, a full Moon, headlight low to the south, and that Mercury, when that Mercury would rise during the day, would be unusually high overhead. So Mercury's out of bounds, his mercurial mind and his lunar nature, particularly here at born at night, is super spotlighted.
Speaker 2:Another layer of that super spotlight and then you did make a reference, you made a reference to that aries rising, that he has- yes, and I'm glad you're bringing that up right now, because where I wanted to go is read uh, what uh jose flores, uh kamara, his mentor, said about him who, when he saw his potential, where other coaches weren't that interested in Manolete, camara saw something, and Hill, and it's the act of being seen by someone in a way that's affirming of who you are, affirming of the soul's potential that allows the acorn, is what Hillman, he keeps going back to that I just I want him to just say soul, so it allows the soul to see for itself, and so he does really kind of do a great job poetically. But what he said, camara said, or what Conrad, the author of the book, said, was that he saw, camara, saw Menelete, had tremendous courage Aries rising, mars Quindichile, the moon in.
Speaker 1:Mars. I'm sorry I had to interrupt your flow, but Quindichile, a 165 between the Mars and the Moon, and the meaning that you made reference to, the meaning of Quindichile would be can you give obsessive compulsiveness?
Speaker 2:So that's the Quindichilli. It also is an indicator of separation, strife, tenacity. I think that's redundant with obsessive-compulsiveness, but it's powerful, it's a powerful, powerful aspect. I think those are good keywords.
Speaker 1:So we're going to instruct our listeners and viewers to start checking out their charts where, where planets are almost opposite to each other but not quite and see if you've got that 165 uh between the two planetary bodies, because that's even, would you say, it's more powerful than an opposition or is it just? Yes, you say it's more powerful than an opposition.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you know you can get, the opposition can be debilitating. It can also be quite helpful depending on the planets involved, because you know one of the key words for the opposition is awareness.
Speaker 1:Like you're seeing, like a full moon, planets, literally see each other, like a full moon, like the full moon, or you see the whole disc of the moon but when you go 15 degrees before or after that full awareness, there's not quite the change, and then it's the changes behind you.
Speaker 2:There's a tension before the awareness comes into view and the anxiety about it coming or leaving. I think that also would then coincide with the behavioral things that we observe, as astrologers or humanistic psychologists, as obsessive, compulsive behaviors that typically are tied to anxiety. So it's, I think, more intense than an opposition and I think because of that it's an important aspect.
Speaker 1:Wow, I'm going to request that you and I riff at least a show or two on so-called astrological minor aspects versus the Ptolemaic big five conjunction, square opposition, etc. Here 165 would be considered a minor aspect. But, you're saying maybe it's called a minor aspect to astrology 101, but you're saying it's super powerful.
Speaker 2:Super powerful and you know, semi-squares can be extraordinarily powerful, especially in consideration of solar arcs. We've talked about the accumulated semi-arc square that happens for all of us at about age 48, 49, very similar to the Saturn return. Like these are epic, you know, powerful times that can be shapeshifting for us in our behavioral experience. So just to finish off, we're at the Aries, ascendant tremendous courage. He saw, kamara saw that Menelit had killed better than anyone he had ever seen. How's that for affirmation? He killed the bulls better than anyone he had ever seen.
Speaker 2:He killed in the old fashioned, dangerous, stylish, straight over the right horn, up to the hilt, school killing. So he was using a sword. They use the spears and they get the spears stuck, and when the bull is sufficiently tired and vulnerable it's not without risks. But when they see the opening for going for the kill, after they've exhausted the bull to some extent, they'll go with a sword. But that had fallen out of favor. Manolite had brought it back and he would use the sword to go in for the kill right over that right horn, and prior to that that practice had all but disappeared. Uh. So, um, kamara saw this and said this this young boy, this young man is a will be a famous bullfighter. He saw it. He saw the acorn.
Speaker 1:There's another. You know, I have to kind of double check El Nath. El Nath is the fixed star for the bull as we're seeing the constellation, for the viewer it's the left horn, for the bull itself it would be the bull's right horn, and El Nath the fixed star in Taurus and Auriga. That El Nath, visually, is above Aldebaran, the red giant. Aldebaran, the red giant, aldebaran, has its placement at eight degrees, almost 9 degrees of Gemini. This is where, as a backyard astronomer, as an astronomer, astrologer, I use white orbs.
Speaker 1:Guys, people will castigate me for using orbs more than 1 degree or 2 degrees. You know I go with what the ancients would have seen, what I see at the eyepiece of my telescope or when I'm out there under the stars. So Meneleta had Aldebaran, the fixed star, aldebaran, conjunct that Mars that you are saying is in Quindichile, to that very powerful moon in this chart, that conjunction of Aldebaran, eight, almost not really nine, degrees of Gemini, the eye of the bull, by the way, the red giant star, the eye of the bull, which is one of the four royal stars of Egypt. It is one of the four royal stars describing gifted.
Speaker 2:It's the military, it's a militaristic, it's a powerful, it's a leader star, amongst other things, that nine degree, eight degree, well, I love the way that you talk about orbs and somebody wants to ask Noel Till, what's the widest orb you would allow for an astronaut. And he said he thought about it for a minute and he said well, 360 degrees if I need it. So you know you're in good company. Yeah, so, you know you're in good company. Yeah, so, but your point is You're, you're.
Speaker 1:You have the visual cue, and that was very similar to Michael Erlewine, by the way, who was also an astronomer.
Speaker 2:I think Erlewine is still living, is he not? Is Earl White he's still living, is he not? Yeah, he still is. I don't know how much astronomy he's doing, but he's got some courses and books written on astronomy. But I think you're probably a few notches above in the astronomical.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you, while I know in our time, we're watching our time a little bit here for this long program today, but we're going to go to the slide about Manolete's death and we may even touch base to show the charts for show and be about the other matador, john Fulton, whose death date was today, our recording. But I did want to comment too, if I may, that I know of a MMA fighter, a champion MMA fighter, who is a Cancer Sun sign and an Aries rising, a zero Taurus 29 Aries rising, and this other cancer person like Manoleta, aries rising, cancer sun. Both of these people are champion fighters.
Speaker 1:They are cancerians who are champion fighters. They're cancerians who go in for the kill Interesting.
Speaker 2:I would never have thought of cancerians as being individuals who go in for the kill I just want to share with you that, something that that's very powerful and I apologize, I had this cut off here, um, but in the aspect grid one of the reasons I like it you get a different view than having the middle of the chart. I like that real estate open so I can write on the chart when I'm working with a client and I can make notes right in there, and so I keep that real estate useful. For that purpose and for the aspects, I prefer the aspect grid and one of the things you get right off the bat is, like you know, sometimes there's more than one Quintichilli. You've got quintiles to the ascendant that are clearly marked his creativity. You can, you know, use the aspects to the midheaven for the vocational aspects.
Speaker 2:But the thing I wanted to point out is that there are no squares in his chart and the square a chart without a square usually is someone who has a difficult time fighting for themselves, and here he becomes a bullfighter. And I just thought that one piece with the Quindichili and the Peregrine planets. That's what these planets, unaspected, represent. So they're going to have a lot more say in in the analytical process of this person's drive to be influential, coming out into the world, coming out from under all that suppression, coming out from within their shell to meet the world, is pretty powerful, but it wouldn't be for long because that one day, when he stepped into the, a chart of the natal horoscope, wrapped first with the solar arcs measured on the date of his death, with the outer ring as the transits, and the first thing that I saw was that transiting Mars coming right to that point that that was hit, you know, in previous times in his life, with the father's death, with meeting the mentor and then meeting the horn of the bull and, interestingly, jupiter opposing by solar arc precisely his natal moon, which is a powerful symbolism on its own. Powerful symbolism on its own.
Speaker 2:But when you're reading the news of how this person drew more fans and more than just fans, he was a national hero and he drew out everybody in the country they were heartbroken and in shock that this person was taken from them. And you see, jupiter rules the ninth house. You know, holding the moon, it deposits the moon and this was a. This was a fond farewell to a, to a hero, like it's in a magnificent talk about coming into full awareness of your country and the world. That. That's to me what that um uh illuminated arrow represents uh, that's uh awesome.
Speaker 1:That's a great, great, great review, particularly uh that that I say above the equator. Astronomically, leos and Cancers are the summertime babies. They are the babies where mom's womb is huge. The babies are about to arrive when children are home from school and people are on vacation. So those Cancer Leo babies are the quintessential family baby and they are the heart of the family. And we know that he was born at midnight. In the sort of in today's world, when you're a child born at midnight, you know the first thing mom and dad will do when they can get you out of the hospital. You know they'll take you home and they'll take you home to bed with them. You know. So that cancer baby, a midnight baby, is the baby who is really in the womb of the family, the womb of the family. And you and I know that the fourth house of a chart, where Manalita has so much of all his planets bundled, deals with home, family and community and nation, nation.
Speaker 2:You know nation state community. Let me just interject here. I should have spoke better to these points. I have a red circle around the sun, the ic at 10, 44, cancer, and solar arc mars and transiting Mars. It's not just transiting Mars that's coming across the Icy, which I know you picked up on Alexander, but for people who aren't seeing the chart, it's a three-ringed chart. And solar arc Mars has come to the sun and transiting Mars has has come to the South node and they're all and, and they're both the arc and transiting Mars which makes it's round every two years, little less, a little more um, and it's just interesting that this is a pivotal planet in menelete's chart, given the quinticilli to the moon. So he's predisposed, I suspect, to the Mars transits and it would be interesting to kind of, you know, delineate that further.
Speaker 1:And Aries rising, ruled by Mars.
Speaker 2:Exactly, which is where I was going, and so the symbolism is profound in my humble opinion. Symbolism is profound in my humble opinion that he made his way in the world with the sword and the spear, as a warrior hero, right in the arena, and that's also how he met his death.
Speaker 1:I wanted to say that you, as you point out and I have your chart, of course, here that that solar arc Mars has finally come from its natal position in Gemini to arc at age 30 to conjoin his son right as you've drawn here, and that will happen only once in his life. Whenever a solar arc cycle happens to our birth chart, it will only happen once in your life. So the astrologer at his birth could say my friend, at age 30, that Mars will come to your son and normally my experience with clients is that's when a client will launch a new company, launch a new business, or when they will achieve at some point of achievement of one's skill set or talents. But for a person who lives by the sword ironically, who died by the sword of the bull the horn, you know that gored his leg by the sword of the bull the horn, you know that gored his leg.
Speaker 1:The transit of Mars is the every two year. Wherever Mars is in your chart, it'll always come back to its natal position every two years of our lives. This orbit around the sun is two years. So, just as you said, it's really profound that that solar arc Mars a once-in-a-lifetime gig, that happened that year before, in the year of his death, had transiting Mars almost to the day on top of it, very, very powerful. Now I was also wondering I presumed you might be looking at other things, as I was about the solar arcs and what might have indicated this, what might have said this is a death? A client might ask, or the listener or viewer might ask would we have known that? You know Mars is accidents, mars is cutting. You know Mars is surgery, but you know Mars could also have been him, you know, with Jupiter, like you know, having the grandest of grand slayings in the ring. It could have been. It could have been the most glorious or the most you know.
Speaker 2:It could be. But remember, we looked at Saturn arcing to Neptune and he almost died of pneumonia, right, and we were making the point of critical illness. Illness, and Neptune so very often can really point to a disorientation in the individual, especially when it's under pressure. In the 12th house, this may have been a weak spot for Manolete in terms of his consciousness and, on this particular day, some kind of supernatural experience which apparently he had some inkling that this was not his day to, you know, be bullfighting. But yet he felt the responsibility and he went and did it anyway. Um, pluto arced to conjoin neptune. You can see it's, you know, bellying up to, up to Neptune in the manner that Saturn did when he had pneumonia as a child at two, and now at 30, we have Pluto bellying up to that critical illness or area and he received the impalement which didn't kill him. He died a day later from the complications of the impalement.
Speaker 1:So you had pointed out earlier that and I'm showing, I'm circling it for the audience here that Neptune Pisces is in the 12th house cusp of his natal chart. Neptune therefore governs that 12th house of his natal chart, the solar arc Pluto had arced from its birth placement to that Neptune, that Neptune which itself, at age two, had that Saturn arc to it. So he has that Pluto now, repeating a cycle he had when he was two years old of Saturn to Neptune. Now it's Pluto to Neptune, Pluto to any astrologer. These days, in the 21st and 20th century, pluto rules death and dying and rebirth. So Pluto to Neptune, pluto to Saturn, pluto's with an orb of Saturn as well. That's the killer. Those are times.
Speaker 1:Those are years that can be deathly, or either the beginning of an illness or beginning of a chronic condition, or it can be the chronic condition that takes your life. And this is a really powerful theme, particularly because I think about astrologer Michael Lewton, decades, decades and decades ago, pointed out in one lecture I attended, and even our kibitzing he and I after that in this case, the ruler of Manilete's eighth house of death, pluto, came to the ruler of Manilete's twelfth house, of long-suffering issues, exactly, or of illness. So it begs the question, doesn't it? Is the 8th house the real ruler of the house of death, or is the 12th the house of death? Or is it, for that matter, is the 6th the house of death? I mean, we're taught the 8th house is the house of death, but a lot of us will see those water houses, the 4 house, the eighth house, the twelfth house, being involved, with illness and death very common, not just the eighth.
Speaker 1:So the ruler of the eighth Pluto can join Neptune is a key thing the ruler of the ascendant Mars by solar arc on his sun, transiting Mars to that, triggering the solar arc, transiting Mars, triggering the solar arc Mars. This is what makes this a deathly, death-defying time period. And even within a few days, that transit of Mars. It's right on his nadir, at 10 degrees. The transit of Mars is right on his Sun, off by, like you know, a day, transiting Mars to his natal sun. That has solar arc Mars on it. So this is a supercharged time of potential jeopardy. And then, of course too, lastly, the solar arc Neptune at nine degrees is off by one degree from the nodes and really by reflection, that's transit the sun, I'm sorry, transiting, forgive me, the transit, thank you, but still Got to keep our Ps and Qs straight here.
Speaker 1:Transiting Neptune at nine degrees of Libra was square, his natal sun and natal nodal axis, that transiting Neptune at nine degrees of Libra. By the way, I checked it out, the asteroid Tauro is around four degrees or five degrees. The Neptune was sitting on his natal asteroid, tauro Bull, by the way, in Manaletta's natal chart. That's another little you know. For those of you who like to dig into asteroids? I do. That's interesting. Neptune is sitting on. You know Tauro the bull. You know that bull strength usually in asteroids.
Speaker 2:Now we've got to see if Michael Jordan has that.
Speaker 2:We'll have to look.
Speaker 2:It is interesting, you brought it up the water signs on the fourth, eighth and twelfth house um do seem to correspond to a kind of matrix of the unconscious, and it's fascinating to think that menelete had this premonition that this was not his day in the arena and but went bravely because he was courageous.
Speaker 2:He went like an aries ascendant to meet his death. Essentially, you know, um, and dying a hero's death in in like, we might not appreciate it as much as a dunk on the basketball court, but because we don't understand the art and the sport of bullfighting. It's not our culture, you know, but if we could step outside of ourselves a little bit and and we, some of us, have seen the bull run, and Spain is crazy about this sport still today, but it was even more so back in Menelete's time and Fulton's time, as we'll see, who's one of the few outsiders from Spain Happened to be an American, born in Philadelphia, to go make and break through in the sport of bullfighting, which is a whole separate story that I hope to, kind of, because it's fun, it's different, we might need to make it.
Speaker 1:From the political banter we got to make it part two of this saga because we got a long show right now, so you know.
Speaker 1:Last thing I wanted to say, if I may just jump in here a little because of the time too, is that that transiting Jupiter was opposing natal Jupiter, mars, and I would have thought that when he was gored by the bull, even though the Mars solar arc was on his son, transiting Mars is by all means supercharging that solar arc-a-lifetime solar arc Mars to his sun. I'm using my arrow to show folks on your chart here. Well, that is, you know, accident, explosion, cutting, surgery, you know something that's martial, and, as you said, the solar arc, pluto, on his Neptune. Those are super dangerous aspects. But the average astrologer would myself included too look at that transit of Jupiter and think, gee, jupiter, the preserver, the one that can preserve life, opposite natal Jupiter, wouldn't you hope that maybe with surgery and Mars that he could have been rescued? What took Manaletta's life a day after the goring, when that transiting moon was opposite his Saturn Neptune at one degree?
Speaker 1:I have to check the notes, but I believe it was bacteria. It could have been Well Neptune. Neptune square his sun. Neptune rules bacteria, pluto rules viruses, by the way, neptune generally governs, although they sometimes swap in the meaning right in medical astrology. But Neptune rules bacteria and Neptune is in his sixth house of wellness and health and treatment and squaring that transiting Mars and squaring that solar arc Mars and squaring that solar arc Mars and squaring that natal sun nodes. And the other thing that they said when I read the bio was they think that they gave him the wrong blood. There was something about bad blood or a hemoglobin is ruled by Mars, by the way. So Neptune, squaring the transitive Mars and solar arc Mars and the sun that they gave him bad blood that's what I read was bad blood or, they wonder. They speculate it could have been bacteria in blood, I don't know. So the Neptune, by the way, when you have Neptune in a medical like, no astrologer would elect a chart right for a medical procedure during Neptune if they could help it.
Speaker 1:And you sure as hell wouldn't elect solar arc Mars to your sun, with transiting Mars on top of it and Neptune square the whole time. That would be the last thing. You would not choose that time for a surgery because of some Neptunian confusion or unclarity that can happen, or neptune can be poisoning or toxins. So this so the chart brings up the matter of death was not just that he was gored, it was actually he could have probably I mean you know american well he probably would have survived just fine with that, his leg gored. But the issue was the neptune. Somebody you know gave him the wrong blood, the wrong blood type or something went wrong with the blood is what they do report. So any closing responses to that?
Speaker 2:thoughts for summarizations I think those are great observations and if it were today he would have survived. I mean, they would have had care at the arena that was probably as good or better than what he ended up getting in the hospital and the transit of Jupiter. In the time.
Speaker 1:Transit of Jupiter opposing his Jupiter. That would have potentially A transit of Jupiter opposing his Jupiter. That would have potentially A transit of Jupiter. Jupiter 20 degrees of Scorpio, transiting on his eighth house, cusp of death, Right Opposing his Jupiter.
Speaker 2:But I mean I guess my closing remark is.
Speaker 2:for me, the challenge is is, like you know, it is what happened, and so well, since we're talking about Menelete today, when Uranus is inching ever so closer to his natal Jupiter, where I am curious to see and watch, if this story doesn't somehow reemerge into the zeitgeist of, you know, netflix or something, because what a story it is, or something. Because what a story it is. And you know something we've talked prior to, you know, going on air how the Salvador Monday work that was discovered that Leonardo da Vinci put out there his chart was lit up at the time with solar arcs and progressions and transits in ways that echoed previous big time events in Leonardo's life, which I hope we get to delve into. I think the big takeaway for me in this discussion and I hope that listeners will take away with them is that the chart echoes. It echoes and reverberates out. You have the sun and the moon that have a particular core and a particular core concern that needs to be heard in the universe, and so what's organized and arranged around that core are other planets that have certain aspects that will reverberate that central message, in a sense, and then you can see, with the arcs and with the transits, as they come around again and again and again, these sensitive points.
Speaker 2:We all have sensitive points in our charts. This is a particularly fine exhibit of that, where there's just a few points here that get resounding rings over and over big bells, we call them, and when the big bell rings it's really kind of difficult not to hear that. So sometimes we need to simplify things because we can get a little too complicated in our approach and I think for listeners what they might be able to do is zoom in on a couple of points, find a couple of points, a couple of sensitive points. See how they reverberate with the core message that the chart is trying to say.
Speaker 2:You wouldn't think that the little boy hiding behind his mother's apron skirt was the person who's going to come out and be a national hero, but that's what happened and he met his fate. He met his death. The appropriate death for the bullfighter, who became a national hero and world-renowned, is what that solar arc Jupiter to the moon in the 9th house in Sagittarius seems to be saying His legacy, the legacy of the history and the legacy of his being a national hero.
Speaker 1:I'd love to continue this, if we can. Another program because we have, as you say, john Fulton to discuss, a bullfighter who was an American bullfighter in Spain. He's also super famous. We have a death chart for him as well, but I did want to just put it out there. If you, if you can, please return and take us through that as well. It, uh, I guess terribly interesting after all, and if you do me a favor, uh, uh, could you kill your share screen so we can see your face? And then I want to, I want to bring up your, uh, your contact, uh, data again, again, as I had before, so people can can see you in, they wish, um, but I but I do think I'll try to reduce this guy, sorry, and get his data there for you.
Speaker 1:Um, I do think it's terribly interesting because, when it comes to the experience of family, uh, and and family lineage, uh, you know, the theme for family lineage is that our lives, our birth and our passing. Our birth and our passing are two critical times about our family meaning and how we make sense of our journey through the life, in the life of our family, the life of our town, the life of our community, the life of our state, the life of our community, the life of our state, the life of our nation. It's all Cancerian themes. And, as you say, manoleta and his chart are personal, family-related and national. Family, george W was a Cancerian. When we went to war to get Saddam Hussein, george W Cancer, cancer son President W said but you know, saddam tried to kill my daddy. You understand what it's like to have someone try to kill your father. It's a personal, emotional, cancerian theme.
Speaker 1:So I just want to say to contact Timothy. Please visit his website, wwwhudsonvalleyastrologercom. As in the Hudson Valley, new York, hudsonvalleyastrologercom, as in the Hudson Valley, new York, hudsonvalleyastrologercom is Tim's wonderful website. Lots of your writings, lots of great publishings and things you have for us to see there. So, tim, you're a wonderful speaker, wonderful teacher. Thank you for this really interesting exercise.
Speaker 2:Hey, just to outtake um, I know we're over, we're in overage time now. Uh, last year I offered up a um, a kind of um ritual for my sister. I every the cold plunge was all the rage and I'm like I I'm not going to go get a $4,000 bucket that I can plug in just so it, you know, can be you know, 20 degrees constantly. But I learned you could do a version of the cold plunge just by taking a cold shower. So I took a cold shower every day last year and I didn't miss one day, and my showers got remarkably short as a result.
Speaker 1:But this year.
Speaker 2:I'm not doing that anymore. I did that one year, and so this year I chose to do something new, and every day I'm answering a prompt on the blog, and so I don't really know what I'm going to write about. It's it just? I see the prompt, I answer the prompt, and so it's just really a spontaneous kind of. You're going to be as surprised as I'm going to be when you get there well, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:So so again, folks, uh for for tim for timothy's website, uh, www. Uh hudson valley astrologercom. Please go and check it out, tim, you're wonderful. Uh, let's, let's do this again and get to uh john fulton's? Uh, bullfighter, john fulton's chart. You know these two principles, the principle of life and aliveness and death. Both, both these bullfighters, manolete and John Fulton, were also heroic showmen, as you say. They loved the audience. The audience was the family, the home, the community, as you say. In Spain, bullfighting is a national religion, and so these men tapped into that pulse of life and, interestingly, both of them were artists. John Fulton, we'll see you next time. Literally a great artist. We'll talk about his art.
Speaker 1:Maybe we'll show a few of his slides next time. All right, thank you so much, tim. Great to see you, great to see you. Have a good night, take care, blessings.