The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships

Astrology and Family Constellations Therapy

• Alexander Mallon • Season 2 • Episode 8

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In this profound conversation with Family Constellation expert / Astrologer Lisa Hagenbuch, we explore how your birth chart isn't just a map of your personal journey— it's a mirror of your entire ancestral lineage...Every challenging aspect and planetary placement tells a story that may have begun long before you were born.

Ms. Hagenbuch reveals how Family Constellation work—an energetic healing modality developed by Bert Hellinger—pairs perfectly with Astrological analysis to identify and heal generational patterns. 

"When we're born into a family, we're really born into a system," she explains, ..."and every family system is looking to be whole and healed." Without conscious intervention, unresolved trauma doesn't disappear when an ancestor dies—it gets passed down to descendants who unconsciously try to complete the healing work.

In this episode, we examine how North and South Nodes in astrology reveal karmic family themes we're meant to either embody or transform.

Using the Trump family charts as a fascinating case study, we examine astrological indicators including the Nodes & Mars placements across four generations.

 Whether you're the designated "change agent" in your Family Constellation, or simply seeking to understand soul-growth challenges, this conversation offers profound insights into how your cosmic inheritance shapes your earthly journey.


Our Guest Host Lisa Hagenbuch can be found at:

www.futureecho.org

(847) 917.5473  /   Lisa@futureecho.org 

Find out about YOUR important chart placements !

~Alexander can be contacted for Consultation and Coaching sessions. You may contact him via his email: info@astrologyspirit.com or website: https://www.astrologyspirit.com/

You can view his offerings and book directly here: https://www.astrologyspirit.com/book-online

Thank you for listening!
Alexander & Sheila

Speaker 1:

Welcome to another episode of the Astrology of Family, Karma and Relationships podcast. I'm your host, Alexander Mallon, and today we have a special guest with us, guest astrologer Lisa Hagenbuch. So thank you, Lisa. So much to bring your knowledge and wisdom to our program today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, Alexander. I'm so excited to be here with everybody.

Speaker 1:

Great to see you.

Speaker 1:

You too, and so I want to always remind people please do subscribe and follow my podcast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and also on YouTube. Those subscriptions are really helpful for those computer algorithms to find my program and list it for people who are searching for astrology and astrology programs. So, lisa, by all means, do tell us a little bit about yourself. Lisa is a very brilliant astrologer, involved with not only individual and family consulting work, but also ancestral astrology and family constellations work. So, lisa, please do take it away and share a little bit about yourself work.

Speaker 2:

So, lisa, please do take it away and share a little bit about yourself. Okay, thanks. So I live in the Chicago area and I went to see an astrologer one day and left knowing it was what I wanted to do. So that was about 1985. I just kind of dove in and I think I've been on this trajectory to really focus on family healing and ancestral healing. I studied with a woman who was very much. We learned consciousness studies along with astrology, which I feel really fortunate to have done.

Speaker 2:

And then I became a parent and had to my second child. He wouldn't come out, so I had to choose what day he was going to be born and you can imagine, as an astrologer I freaked out. I'm looking at all these charts. He told me he was a crystal child. So then I got into new energy, kids and conscious parenting. And then somebody had recommended family constellation work to me which I thought had to do with astrology. I didn't look into it for a while and then, when I dove into that, it's actually its own energy modality. But then I tend to blend that in with my astrological sessions. So I'm really interested in family patterns, working with families, parents I think every mother should leave the hospital with a copy of their child's birth chart. So my work continues to evolve. I'm getting into, I know, tarot, I'm getting into more energy work and so now interested in dwarf planets. So I just keep evolving and growing, but I just I love astrology and will study it my whole life.

Speaker 1:

So glad to have you here. Well, thank you for that introduction and that personal sharing. I think we all I do believe I'm quite sure that all of us astrologers and students of astrology we can really all do kind of a personal sharing of how we came to astrology or how astrology came to us in our Western modeled scholastic world. Since I attend those of you who know me might know this already, but I attend lots of astronomical conferences not astrological astronomical conferences every year because I'm a very, very avid backyard astronomer and, of course, how I got into astrology was kind of an unusual trajectory from astronomy into astrology. But in any case, all of us have a story of how we came to astrology or how astrology came to our lives, and it's unique to each of us.

Speaker 1:

At the same time, it's a compelling story, I think I mean I think in the West, because we're, I think even still we are taught that astrology has no verity, has no truth. In fact, those in the hard sciences can get very distressed around the topic of astrology, although they almost always not almost always they always know nothing about astrology. And those who speak most vociferously as I did when I was a teenager against astrology, it's because they don't have the knowledge or information of what it is. But your being a guest here today, I think, opens up for me, I think, one of the most important elements of Western practiced astrology, which is the idea of the self in a chart, the self as seen in a chart and our family that our chart describes. I mean, obviously, you know my podcast is entitled the Astrology of Family, karma and there's a reason behind that, but I think that you and I and many other students of astrology understand that this chart's a descriptor of our, of our journey and our family.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I, I agree, I think not just the family that we're born into or that we create, but also our soul family. So there's just so much information in a, in a birth chart, to to but, we're all part of a system, right.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's it. We're part of an immediate birth family system, we're part of a genetic family system, you know so that to be here in the physical, incarnate, spiritual plane, this physical plane, you've got to have a genetic genome. You come from a mother and father, who come from a mother and father, and there's that family genome which the chart ostensibly I mean, I think more than ostensibly, the chart does describe that journey as well, in a very powerful way. And I think that that's a lot of the work you do as well.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yeah, yeah. So, fascinated with patterns and mysteries, and so every session is different. When you meet with somebody, it's just fascinating work.

Speaker 1:

So it is always fascinating work and working with clients is always, is always a learning curve and experience for us as practitioners.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

So perhaps too, as we go forward, you can sort of share a little bit about family constellations therapy and what that work is and how you bring astrological professional work into that family constellations work and vice versa.

Speaker 2:

Sure, yeah. So family Constellations is an energetic healing modality that provides positive shifting and resolution on unresolved trauma, intergenerational issues that continue to reverberate down a family system line and will haunt a descendant who has come in in the present moment. Because we're all born, when we're born into a family, we're really born into a system and so in every family system is looking to be whole and healed. And so we have these generational patterns and if they don't get solved you know, if Grandma Bertha doesn't solve her issue five generations before the issue doesn't die with her or I should say that would be great, great, great, great great Grandma Bertha doesn't solve her issue, you know, going back all these generations, when she dies, then there is still this issue reverberating and so what will happen is that a descendant will be born and they will kind of pick up the baton to try to heal and make the family system whole. So they're taking on an issue we call it in this work. They become entangled with it. So they're taking on an issue we call it in this work, they become entangled with it, and it didn't start with them and it doesn't belong to them.

Speaker 2:

So eventually it's like trying to process somebody else's unresolved trauma in your life, it will tend to go haywire and the descendant is really coming in to try to heal the whole family system. So, but without finding their own personal healing. It's really. It just kind of goes haywire in their life and it can cause them a lot of you know whether it's in their. It can affect any area of their life. It could be work, it could be their life purpose, it could be health, finances. There are these entanglements, invisible loyalties that the descendants come in and typically it gets to the point where somebody will be more of a change agent and they're going to heal themselves and as a result, especially in a work like Family Constellation work, they can heal the intergenerational line. The belief is that it can heal seven generations going backward and seven generations going forward.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, I totally love your presentation. I totally love your presentation and really when I had the opportunity to hear you present for our NC, define that I think you're saying this that our astrological charts mirror and reflect that genealogical path. Our charts are themselves well, our birth is interwoven with that genealogical past and that therefore our chart can only be another mirror of the path, of that genealogical path. So the other thing that you just said that really strikes me so powerfully in my practice as well is this idea that some of those patterns that preceded two or three or four generations prior are not necessarily ours. We step into this immediate family dynamic and as we mature and as we go through our developmental years and as we individuate in our teens and early 20s, continue the process of maturing and individuation, we kind of develop a personality structure that we ourselves identify with and that those around us immediately identify with as being who and what we are. But of course there's really layers to the onion. Who and what we are, but of course there's really layers to the onion. So there are elements that are our essence or of our essence, maybe one could say elements that are of our soul. But then there are elements to our personality structure that aren't really inherently ours.

Speaker 1:

And so I think we can look at a person's chart, a client's chart, our own charts, and we can see where we are truly in flow with certain qualities of personality and where there are other things that are really not ours to own.

Speaker 1:

And we put that to practical terms and I wonder if you agree, a person might acquire a defensive, reactive way of moving through the world, to perceive, to get a sense of people, to see who's encountering them throughout the day, maybe from a place of unconscious, automatic or familiar self-protection. Yes, although that quality, that behavior might not really be theirs. It might more likely be a mother or a father or a grandparent's root behavior. And so I have found in my practice, you know clients who've come through calamitous social change. We could say you know World War II and the events around and the cultural events around World War II that are calamitous to the greatest degree Grandma, grandpa, aunts, uncles who survived that and then had children down the genealogical line. That trauma body, that trauma layer is still present and I think modern science is even saying, yes, indeed, we see this reality, mitochondrial and cellular mitochondrial. The genome is remembering this experience.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, because there's. So we our family systems, whether we get along with our family members or not, we can't deny that. It's really a cord you can't cut right. So there's the DNA molecule, like through the bloodline. You're going to have these tendencies, you know personality traits or you know health condition markers, all of that.

Speaker 2:

But then epigenetics is actually the modern science component that is teaching us that they're beginning to understand how experiences in our family lineage, such as World War II for example, will have they can.

Speaker 2:

So it's the study of how behaviors and environmental factors can influence gene expression without actually changing the DNA sequence. So they turn their chemical tags that get turned on and then that can affect how a descendant is going to behave. So it's kind of to me it's like the nurture side of the nature versus nurture right. So we have the astrological chart, which is the nature, and we have the DNA strand, but then we also have the nurture and what experiences our ancestors went through and they're finding that actually, through ancestral healing work like family constellation or looking at your birth charts for generations, you can actually, when a descendant heals it, it can actually turn off the gene expression that may have been causing this unhealthy pattern in the family line. So to me again, it's part of what can clear it going backward and forward, or how I filter it, let's say through my own interpretation, is the healing process is partly a factor of conscious awareness.

Speaker 2:

Yes, it starts there. I think it really starts there, because a lot of what keeps these patterns ingrained and unconscious is the fact that there's a lot of secret information in families of that tomb and so bringing the secrets just to conscious awareness is part of the healing process, because you really can't heal what you don't acknowledge. So that's a lot of what keeps these patterns ingrained, and in revealing the secrets in the in the constellation, work is really helpful in getting to the root cause of something.

Speaker 1:

I totally agree and I think too, you know, we take it for granted and I discuss this with my clients very often but these familiar qualities, these family, we call something family familiar. In fact, most of us excuse me, in November, most of us, or many of us in the US, you know grow to great lengths to reconnect with our family and rejoin with our family. Along adjacent to that coming together for Thanksgiving, there may be a bundle of feelings or psychic material that's churned up, both the joy of coming together with the family as well as those unconscious elements of what has become familiar or really even ingrained in familiarity of character. Many, many things that we take for granted, that we don't necessarily self-review, although upon as we mature, typically as we get older, we do occasionally check in with self and say, gee, it's funny that I have this trait. It's not really necessarily something I identify with but, boy, it's so much like my mother or my grandmother or my father.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I have a magnet that says, no matter how hard she tried, she still turned into her mother, right? So I mean cause, yeah, and and going back even just to the environment you grew up in, right, we all tend to kind of go backward in in time and you know, and so the more that we can. And then typically there's going to be somebody born into the family that's like a change agent, that's going to be the black sheep or the one that's like meant to, meant to change it. So I think that that's what really can stir things up on a Thanksgiving dinner, right.

Speaker 1:

It's like, right on, I'd love to discuss this with in future shows with you, I hope. Yeah, I mean I found that, for instance, in a family system, if you do, if we do synastry comparing charts one person in the family to another the black sheep oftentimes, or the one who's a change agent, or the one who might be a turbulent maker will oftentimes have signs or elements that are not contiguous with other family members. So families typically will have an earth-water thing between parents and most of the kids, and then one kid is all fire and air and they're going to be the change agent, or the one that's kind of the odd man out, or the one who's who's who's. Natural nature rhythm is in some way providing a shift or challenge to that family.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly, and as a change agent in my family, I was the one entangled with an ancestor. So oftentimes these entanglements are passed down to people that are meant to shift the family pattern because there's something that is unhealed in the past. Our family member just has been excluded and needs to be brought back, which was the case with me. But the family system can't be whole unless everybody has a place and everybody belongs.

Speaker 1:

And again, I think, I mean I kind of, I do, I ponder, I have belief around it. I think there's a very key element, that belonging can quintessential Western guru of our time who would talk about, you know, kind of watching oneself move through the world and watching our movie, you know, like living your life Alexander and Lisa talking, but occasionally checking in with self and observing Alexander talking with Lisa or Lisa observing Lisa's talking with Alexander, this idea of self-awareness, this idea of being mindful as we move through you know, who are we in this interaction, in this particular incarnation. And I want to add something else that was percolating when you were sharing. Yeah, 35 years ago, as I was practicing in my first couple of decades or so of practice, there was a president of a local astrology chapter who believed utterly and completely that your birth chart, my birth chart, everyone who's watching, listening, your individual birth charts, each of us, that they are our nature, that is our soul chart. And then our parents are reacting to that. So she and I had a real collision there because I say no, no, no, no, yes, you come in with your soul nature. Yes, you come in.

Speaker 1:

Two-thirds of the world believes in reincarnation. So if that's true. We come in with our soul, nature. Every mother who carries a child feels that soul of that child in her womb. That child comes in with that disposition of self and but the genetic element that the birth chart mirrors and that family patterning, that family social engagement, those are incredibly powerful factors. So, yes, the child comes in with its nature, but the storyline of mom, dad and the lineage is incredibly powerful and the genetic piece, it's all interwoven together. It's not that the child comes in and the parents react to this child. The child comes in and the parents have to work with. The way this child perceives mom and dad was what her idea was. Your chart describes the lenses you have as a soul that have you perceive mom and dad in certain ways, and I think that that's partly true. But I also think the genetics, I also think the family patterning, the familiar, is incredible. It's all there together, it's my thought. It's all there together.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because we call it the parental projection in this work. And you know, as a mother, I tried, you know it was. I'm so glad that I knew astrology when I became a mother, because otherwise I think we have these projections of our kids, of what they're going to be, and so when they present as who they are, then that's our reaction to the projections that we put on them. And we see, you know, you can butt heads or you can just embrace it and go, oh, I see you for who you are and try not to try to control it or have your movie play out where they're there in a whole nother, you know, they've got an indie movie going on and you're like no, I thought it was a period piece, you know.

Speaker 1:

I love that Great analogy. And also, too, there are the facts of when a child enters our family social dynamic. If a parent has just achieved a wonderful career achievement, that's a powerful, energetic signature in the family. That's what this newborn infant is receiving. Mom or dad just achieved a super act. Well, conversely, mom and dad just got fired from their job. You know, right, there is that.

Speaker 2:

There is that, that undeniable human experience totally and it's so important to look at, you know, when you look at your chart, and then also to go back in time, what, what aspects um were your parents undergoing at that? Or, I'm sorry, transits, or you know you can use progressions or solar arcs, whatever you know.

Speaker 1:

Look at what was going on when you were in marinating in the family amniotic fluid, because right on, and that's sure one of the first things I teach with my students too, and my clients as well, which is your chart chart, my chart, everyone's chart who's listening watching is an event chart in mom and dad's life. It's the event of a human coming out of mom's body. All of our birth charts are a major event for mom a person coming out of her body. First of all, it's a big one. It's one of the biggest ones you're going to have in an incarnation. So our charts are an event chart that describe the entire event of this infant entering this family system. That's a really I think it's a perspective that most astrologers don't consider. Oh, my chart's an event chart, mom and dad's chart. Well, I better go look at mom and dad's chart with this event of Alexander and see what was that happening, what was that like for them and what were the other circumstances around that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because you're going to. You know that's where we look at the 12th house in this work, because that's what you were kind of marinating in before you came in and you know is your first house expression, so it is significant to go back and do that for mom and for dad.

Speaker 1:

So there's so many layers to this.

Speaker 2:

There are just layers and layers, right.

Speaker 1:

Layers and layers. So coming back to this slide and going forward. So the idea of family constellations therapy is awareness of the relationship of family systems yeah, so family constantly.

Speaker 2:

You know it's interesting because a friend of mine had told me about it years ago, thinking it had to do with astrology. But really what it does and you can do an individual work or you can do it in group settings, but I like to think of it as like kind of flying a drone over a situation. So the client presents with a situation and in this work I try to keep it really to the facts and figures of the situation and not get into the story. So then people in a group setting, people or individual energetic objects are brought in and we look at the placement and the relationship between the objects and we as facilitators can see what is out of order.

Speaker 2:

Bert Hellinger was the founder of family constellation work and he actually lived with the Zulu tribe and he was a very fascinating man, a number of different modalities that he did, but he noticed that there were orders of love and family systems and when love was in order that everything flowed better. So through the work and seeing the dynamics of the whatever is presenting as more of an unhealthy pattern or pathology in your life, you look at how everything is and you bring in objects to represent people or concepts in meditation and calling them in to kind of remove what is not necessary in this current moment or shift it into a healthy pattern. Then we get everything in order within the circle and then things tend to shift in your outer world and you will experience healing, whether you're the client, the representative or just witnessing it. Every time I do a session I feel like I'm healing something in my family line I love you right on.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I always say I do, I always say, you know, in a client session, if I'm not challenged to grow, if I'm not involved in the growth process, there's no juju in the client session, there's no magic, there's no soul-to-soul, human-to-human exchange of growth. I mean, in the end result it comes down to the conscious growth, to the conscious awareness and a sense of presence of self. So you're saying this family constellation work, the construct of itself that Bert Hellinger came up with, his experience with the Zulu tribe in Africa, the idea of family unity and love, those human elements of flow are really fundamental and whatever is stemming that flow or altering it are things that need relief and awareness.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think it's really foundational in somebody's life because if whatever's out of flow and order in your life is going to affect your relationships I think with people and relationships, all relationships in your life like, if there's something out of line in the father's lineage, it will affect your work.

Speaker 2:

If there's something out of line in the father's lineage, it will affect your work. If there's something out of line in the mother's lineage, it will affect your ability to give and receive love. And so you know it's really foundational to be as much in flow in your life as possible, and that would be looking at whatever is out of flow and family constellations is a great way to. I think it's really, really the best modality I have found for getting at an issue that just is resistant to other types of healing and that's the invisible thread to the ancestors of the patterns you know being out of order and you don't know that right. You know it's even more deep, I think, than even your own subconscious. You know it's like getting in touch with where was this out of line in your family lineage?

Speaker 1:

Well, and that you know that I think interweaves. I'm going to go back to a couple of slides that you had presented for us and we can kind of go forward here. This idea of the lineage yeah, a birth chart describes well what does a birth chart describe? It describes your soul connecting to these other souls that have a similar soul journey, to your soul journey and that, unless you incarnate the Buddha, which most of us don't, we're here to grow. Well, what's the growth about? Oftentimes, in human form, the growth is about challenges or blockages or trauma layers or family traumas or family impediments. Yes, we're here to raise up the natural talents and strengths Simult simultaneously. We're here to round off or support those trauma wounds, those lineage challenge wounds.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I'm glad you said that, because there are great things that we inherit from our families, too right, that we can grow and expand. And what I love about this, too, is that in the birth chart, everyone and everything in your life is contained in there, right? So all these answers it pairs so well with family constellation astrology together, because everybody in your life is in your chart and you can read the energy. You can read it in the quantum field that we're all connected to. We call it the knowing field in this work, but you can also find it in your birth chart.

Speaker 1:

And Carl Jung, not Freud but Jung. I mean, I know, you know, but the audience might not know Carl Jung, Freud's kind of protege Jung, was himself an astrologer. A lot of Jung's ideas were borrowed directly from astrology and he would refer to it not as the quantum field, but he referred to it as a collective unconscious.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, yeah so go ahead Please.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I put this slide together just because I think in ancestral healing. Transgenerational astrology is great for this, and this is the study of patterns, repeating themes and there's so much you can dive into with this. But looking at it across three to four generational lines, whereas family constellations, is its own energetic healing modality that facilitates this positive shifting of these outdated patterns and puts them back into order. So we can get the awareness. But then we have a healing modality to pair with it to say it's more than just knowing about it, we've got to do something about it to put it back in order and heal it.

Speaker 1:

Right, exactly. And again, the pairing of astrology charts with the familyellations work that you're doing, I wonder for you too. I'm seeing the connections beautifully in that when you look at an astrology chart, I think it does readily. Each person's chart take us back two or three generations. You can see in the chart, certainly at least the previous parenting and grandparenting and those figures that are around that native in their birth chart. Those people are shown in our charts quite literally. So the birth chart is a mirror of the whole system you're born into.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, yeah, and so yeah, there's a lot of just really real world benefits from doing this work, because you're going to get greater awareness of where your place is in the family system and your relationships will improve.

Speaker 2:

Because when you grow, first of all when you look at the patterns, I think astrology is one of the best tools for really generating true compassion for people, because you see the patterns and the challenges that they are in, the strengths that they're dealing with. So it helps us to see our interconnectedness within the relationships within our family. We can shift outdated patterns, get clarity on root causes or personal issues, which brings a lot of deep peace. And also, we may have these contentious relationships in our family maybe our family of origin, our siblings or whatever but when we work to put the energy back in order and detangle what is enmeshed, then we can have resolution without having to have the confrontation of, you know, my relationship with my family once I detangled from my ancestor. Now everything is in right relationship and my flow with my siblings, my parents, is much better and I didn't have to have this huge confrontation which can just ingrain us in our own positions, right, well?

Speaker 1:

beautiful said.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think also one of the best things that has come from this is I have such a deep connection now with my ancestors Because, you know, I say, like you know, when people are, you know, in crisis, they will call on you know an archangel or Jesus or Mary or Metatron or whoever it is. But we have all these ancestors on our sidelines that want to be put in, like, put me in, coach, I want to help out here, and we don't think to call them in and help us and they're more intimately connected to these issues. So I think they're great resources. So developing a deeper connection is just. You know, the love deepens, the connection deepens, the flow in your life is better and, like I said, the natives, the Lakota tradition, believe that anytime someone clears an ancestral issue, the healing is seven generations back, but also then our descendants don't have to come in burden with these issues. So we're giving a great gift to our family line, particularly the descendants who would have to come in and still work on an issue that wasn't resolved.

Speaker 1:

Beautifully, beautifully, well-worded, thank you.

Speaker 2:

So the idea of epigenetics you were addressing a little earlier today as well, yeah, epigenetics really connects, you know, the modern science to us and shows us how that it's not just the DNA, it's just it's the experiences that our ancestors went through that shifted their pattern of behavior with their child, and then that, you know, I have another slide that gives an example of how this can work, if you want to go.

Speaker 2:

So, then that one, yeah. So if we have our grandparent who went through World war two and so went through, you know the trauma in war or whatever. They saw the grief. So that's when an epigenetic mark can turn um, a gene um like it's. It's a key expression. It can turn it um on or, and then that can be passed through the generations, affecting how their, the future descendants will act.

Speaker 2:

So your parent then could be anxious. They have emotional distance because of the fact that he's got the. Your parent has the DNA from their parent, but then they also have which is the biology, but then also the behavior of. Maybe you know their parent came back from the war and you know a lot of the people greatest generation. They didn't talk about it, right. So they had all of this unprocessed grief which can turn in for their child, can turn into anxiety, emotional distance, and then they have a child.

Speaker 2:

They might be overprotective because, oh my gosh, what could happen to this child, right, and then so that child has patterns of stress and fear. It blocks energy in their life. But we know that we tend to work on our issues now a lot more than our ancestors did. So the child can then do some family constellation, they shift it, they shift the pattern, they can reconnect with their life and resilience and emotional freedom. And so epigenetics just kind of shows us how this trauma echoes. But a family constellation work or other work can help to stop the echo of the reverberation and put everything back in order and so it's really helpful and I think for you, think of the grandparent who might come back in. He doesn't have to really work through that trauma because somebody in the future, you know, in the future generation, went back and healed it in the future, you know, in the future generation went back and healed it.

Speaker 1:

That's, there are lots of layers to what you just presented energetically, soul to soul, person to person. Lots of layers and I'm really praying that you will join me again in a few other programs. I think we've got a pretty powerful theme here?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1:

That is such a human experience. It's a lived experience for everybody. But, as you were sharing, it had me thinking of a client that I've worked with now she and her husband but a client I've worked with for 35 or 40 years now, and her story was interesting in that her mother shared with her that when her mother was maybe four years old or thereabouts four or five herself, that the parents were in Europe and they were on bicycles and my client's mother was in the little back bicycle seat the infant seat on the bicycle and the Germans were marching down the road toward them and they quickly ditched the bicycles in the ditch and covered themselves with hay as the Germans marched by. This is just as World War II was really gearing up. So her mother was on that bicycle even though she was three or four or five years old at the most I think she was three or four. It left one of the biggest impressions of her life that, knowing that they were in jeopardy, knowing that they were in fear for their lives, knowing that something really bad was happening, stayed with her mother and since I have her mother's chart, I actually worked with her mother.

Speaker 1:

It's actually interesting indeed everything you just shared. It is so seen in the birth chart. It's so astrologically right there to see as a major astrological theme, uh, and having the story, or knowing the story, really validates, uh, for my client, some of what she's absorbed from her mother, of course, yeah, but it also you're also sharing something important. Our astrological charts show this, whether you know it or not, whether you have all the details or not. So, as you said when we first opened today, oftentimes there are particularly with older generations, meaning generations of people of late 1800s, born early 1900s, 1910, 1920, 1930s and 40s there was a different social system in Western man and many things were not shared with children In fact, definitively not shared. Like it would be infrequent that parents born in those years would discuss that they were having affairs extramarital affairs immediately before, during or after a person's pregnancy and birth.

Speaker 1:

Things like that the birth chart will show.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because one of the biggest exclusions that can happen in family systems are miscarriages that are not shared or abortions that are not shared, because that energy doesn't die, it's just transformed, and so that can affect birth order and that can throw a family system out of order. And again, it's the secrets, right? It's like the affairs, right. This isn't really your father.

Speaker 1:

Or even if a mother has tried to carry a child and has had miscarriages before our birth, for instance. What's the emotional load, the emotional, psychological load, for mom and dad who are getting pregnant, having pregnancies, then losing a child and then eventually have a baby follow that? Is there any emotional, psychological anything percolating that?

Speaker 2:

that adult has, yeah, the fear of losing it again.

Speaker 1:

There could be lots of different feelings. There could be fear of losing it again. There could be lots of different feelings yeah, right it could be fear of losing it again.

Speaker 1:

There could be a sense of, for a father or mother, maybe I'm not supposed to have a child again, or to have this child. Or there could be other complex feelings, mixed, mixed feelings around uh, bringing that, bringing a child in, uh. So you know, there are lots of layers to our life stories, all of us, and our charts. Technically well, some astrologers say to me, lisa, well, our charts can't show us everything. I say no, I disagree. I think our charts show everything.

Speaker 2:

They do, it's our ability to see it. Yeah, you just have to know where to pick it out, right? They might not give you all the details, but they're going to give you the energy, for sure.

Speaker 1:

And so, therefore, to our own consciousness, yes, involved in the perception, and you know, of ourselves or others, or the chart, for you will yeah, and that brings up a really good point, because, you know, I I get that a lot of like well, what does this mean?

Speaker 2:

and I'm like well, I have to interact with your consciousness to know how you're using it right, because two people with the same chart you know, my teacher used the conjoined twins as a great example, that they were literally the same body, same chart, but they wanted different things, you know. So we have a consciousness that we have to pay attention to. So it's, we have all of this ancestral influence, but how is our consciousness coming in? And that's where the change agents can come in with a completely different level of consciousness, not that good or better or worse, it's just different, you know. But it's here to add an element into a family system.

Speaker 1:

So you had some other slides that you've had us prepare for today and I think we're kind of heading into territory. We may have to do a part two of the show to really do it justice, but we have the chart of Donald Trump's father, fred Trump, and his father, frederick Trump, and I'm wondering if there was something that you wanted to address. In brief, we've got to watch our time, I think, for the viewers and listeners. Maybe we'll do a part two of this show and really dig into their charts more thoroughly.

Speaker 2:

Sure, that'd be amazing, because there's just so. What I liked about this is we have four generations, we don't have, and in this work you know you can rectify the chart, but I don't know how to do that. So I hadn't rectified his chart, but there's so much there and what I I wanted to talk about was, um, the themes in these charts related to the nodes and pluto and mars, because they're mars pluto and the nodes and fred's and the nodes, mars, uh, and pluto in frederick's chart.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, actually through through four generations of it. Right so, and also the fact that the name right there. So in this work, when you name a descendant after an ancestor, that automatically adds another thread of connection back to that person directly. So in the Trump family line we have Frederick. I put Fred Trump, but his name is actually Frederick as well. He added in a middle name of, like the mother's maiden name, and then he had a son that he named Fred as well. So we got three generations of Freds and then, with Donald, you know, he named his son Donald Jr, and that often happens in family lines, so that name alone.

Speaker 2:

So it's really interesting when you do a whole show on your name, because what was the energy of your name? Were you named for someone? Were you named, I say you know, it could even be like your mom liked Jane Austen novels and your middle name is Jane because of that, you know. So it ties you to people. It ties you to, particularly in this work, ancestors. So if we look at and what you want to do in this work is in the transgenerational astrology part of it is look for themes, uh, repeating themes, um are significant and I thought even just talking about that we can dive into much more, but each of the uh, each of these four generations have a planet either conjunct the south or north node, donald, you know, president trump has here's.

Speaker 2:

Here's president trump's chart donald trump yeah, so 14, to 46 yeah yeah, so he's got the moon conjunct the south node and the sun conjunct the north node and donald trump.

Speaker 1:

Donald trump was born during a lunar eclipse. That's right. Yeah, literally, he's born during a lunar eclipse.

Speaker 2:

That's right yeah.

Speaker 1:

Literally, he was born during a total lunar eclipse, where the Earth's shadow sun on one side, moon on the other the Earth's shadow was covering the moon. That's what a total solar eclipse is. So we're talking about an exact alignment, but I think it is interesting the metaphor that the Earth's shadow was covering Donald's moon. You know you'd have this red blood moon they call it a blood moon or a dark moon or something but the Earth's shadow is covering that moon. He was born right during an eclipse and so the nodes are, as you say, really powerful in Donald Trump's chart.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so in the transgenerational astrology piece of it so if you have a planet conjunct the north node, have a planet conjunct the north node, it's thought that not only do you come in to really embody the themes in your family of origin, but also the whole ancestral line. So you are carrying on that theme in a more empowered way, in a larger way. And if you have a planet conjunct the South Node, again it's the whole family lineage, but you're here to disrupt or shift something within the whole family lineage. So it's interesting because if we go back to Frederick Trump's chart chart, he's got Mars conjunct his North node and the nodes are in a square to Pluto. And so when in and I think in evolutionary astrology, when you have a planet that's in square to the nodes, that's really highlighted as maybe a little bit of a skip step and so you're trying to balance the energy there. So if we think about, you know Mars being, you know it's a work planet, it's more. You know.

Speaker 2:

By all means, you know Frederick Trump, he was an immigrant. He was very much. You know. He's got a lot of Aries in his chart, so he was very much a go-getter. But there's something about looking at power dynamics right from the start with him. So we've got Pluto, mars and the nodes really highlighted.

Speaker 2:

And then when we go to Fred Trump's chart, he actually has Saturn conjunct the South node. So he started to take the family business in another direction because he's changing the structure a little bit, because we've got Saturn involved in work and he's got a Mars-Uranus conjunction that's square the Moon and Pluto is square the moon as well as square Venus. So that is all really highlighted in his chart. And then just to kind of just go through this theme real quick and we can dive into more questions, but if we then we go to Donald Trump's chart, he has of course we have the Sun and the Moon in conjunction to the nodes.

Speaker 2:

Donald also has that Uranus conjunction in with his Sun and Mars on the Ascendant and so that's really highlighted. And then I brought in Donald Trump Jr's chart because he has Pluto conjunct the North Node and Pluto is square the Ascendant-Descendant, he's a Cancer rising and he's got a Sun-Venus combination. I would argue that a little bit that Donald, you know Donald Jr has an ability to kind of shift the power dynamics and expression of that in this lifetime, although I think that's a really hard challenge with everything being so ingrained and just the you know by all. There's a lot we could talk about with power control, anger in this family.

Speaker 1:

Well yeah, you're hitting some really big themes. You know, I, as a backyard astronomer I'm an astronomer myself I like to look at astronomy and astrology together. And you know, let's not forget that Pluto was discovered in 1930. And what was happening in and around Pluto's discovery, concordant with our awareness of Pluto being out there, 1930. 1935, we developed plutonium, we discovered the element plutonium and of course plutonium led to, let's say, things like nuclear energy and Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You know, pluto also came along when there was an abundance of plutocrats. Our discovery of Pluto coincided with a time period where there were abundant plutocrats, like we have right now.

Speaker 1:

But back in the 1930s Stalin and Hitler and Mussolini and Franco there were a bunch of others theme and Mars is Marshall and of course Donald Trump has Mars rising, mars and Leo and Frederick Trump, donald's grandfather, had Mars and Leo, mars North Node, as you said. So Mars North Node conjunction in Leo and Donald Trump has that conjunct, his Pluto and Mars. So grandfather's Mars-North Node conjunction was on Donald's Pluto-Mars Ascendant conjunction. That's a family lineage theme and boy powerful too, because Donald Trump Jr also has Mars in Leo. So grandfather to Donald Trump, great-grandfather to Donald Trump Jr. So Donald Trump's great-grandfather, frederick Trump had Mars in Leo, so does Donald Trump Jr, so does Donald Trump Sr. This Mars and Leo thing apparently is a big deal in this family lineage.

Speaker 2:

Oh, and Fred Trump. Yeah, North Node in Leo. Fred Trump and then Fred Trump.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the North Node. As you said, big deal in this family lineage. So yeah, north node. And leo, fred trump, uh, and then fred trump, yeah, the north node as you said the nodes, the nodes in astrology of those who don't know, uh, the nodes are considered karmic points. Some in the west call the north node dharma and the south node karma. They reverse them in india, where the north node is karmic and the south node is dharmic. They say but anyway, but anyway, it deals with lineage right.

Speaker 2:

Themes of karma and lineage, yeah, and also something I forgot to point out. So for President Trump, he has that Mars and Pluto in the 12th house and that you know he was marinating in all of that energy, except the 12th house is so important in terms of how it's going to express in the lifetime, and then, of course, you've got that Mars right on the ascendant from the 12th house.

Speaker 1:

Indeed. So I guess it has me wanting to say that, gosh, I think there's so much for us to unpack here. Maybe we can get a part two to this episode and discuss in the Trump's chart at the very least, because there's so much that you just brought up, Lisa for us to look at. But I want to double check here Is this all accurate information for people to reach out to you and your services and practice and client schedule?

Speaker 2:

Yes, yes, thank you so much it is so.

Speaker 1:

future echo, future echoorg. So we find you at wwwfutureechoorg and Lisa at future echo. One word future echoorg. Wonderful Well, lisa, it's been really eyeopening, delightful to be with you today and have you share with us and to jumpstart us on this really super powerful theme of family constellation work and, in this case, the Trump's charts. I do personally think as a teaching tool, donald Trump's chart is a terrific chart. There's so much humanity in Donald Trump's chart in so many ways that I think we can dig in. So perhaps you and I could have a part two to this show that I had.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, because you know one of the things too in astrology is like whoever is the president impacts your life. You know their energy impacts the citizens of the country you live in right, or the mayor of your town impacts your life, so he's having a larger effect on culture and the citizens, but a lot of opportunity for transformation. I will say that.

Speaker 1:

Indeed. Well, you're delightful. Thank you so much for coming today and thanks everyone for watching and listening and look out for part two. We're going to literally throw it together as we close out this particular segment, so thanks for joining us. Thank you.