The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships
Welcome to The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships Podcast, hosted by me Alexander Mallon along with my co host Sheila G.
A Certified Astrologer and Intuitive who has practiced for over 47 years, I offer Consulting and Counseling Services to a broad clientele, from business leaders to entrepreneurs to teachers and more.
This podcast is about exploring how and why we are ‘astro-genetically’ bonded to our parents, and how our own birth chart is a map of this powerful 'soul-birthing' moment for our entire family. Astrological birth charts are a mirror of the Soul, highlighting hidden themes and revealing our Sacred Karmic Lessons.
Each episode will address our family relationships and family themes, as well as how we relate to our spouses, friends, co-workers and other relationships in our world.
Alexander will be sharing interviews and stories from fellow astrologers, as well as audience members who wish to participate. We will periodically draw names to invite viewers and listeners to have a mini review of their charts during future broadcasts.
To enter our drawing, please email us a screen capture of your review on our Podcast or YouTube channel at info@astrologyspirit.com. Participants will be chosen via a monthly drawing.
We look forward to sharing and learning together with you all, and may the Stars guide your way on.
The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships
Trump Family & Transgenerational Astrology w guest Lisa Hagenbuch
Join Astrologer Alexander Mallon and Family Constellation Therapist Lisa Hagenbuch as they explore the fascinating intersection of astrology and transgenerational family dynamics.
Using the Trump family as a compelling case study, we track how specific planetary signatures—particularly Mars, Venus, and Pluto aspects—reveal powerful behavioral templates that echo through four generations. Family Constellation Therapy reveals how unresolved issues don't simply disappear—they're passed down like batons until someone interrupts the pattern.
We examine how Frederick's gold rush opportunism evolved into Fred's Depression-era real estate empire, culminating in Donald's political ascendancy. From Frederick Trump's entrepreneurial Mars in Leo conjunct the North Node to Donald Trump's Mars-Pluto rising configuration at the royal star Regulus, these planetary patterns tell a story of evolving family themes around power, relationships, and control. The striking repetition of Mars in Leo across four generations illuminates how ancestral patterns can become amplified when left unexamined.
The episode explores fascinating astrological details: Donald's birth during a lunar eclipse (symbolizing obscured emotions), Fred's challenging grand cross configuration involving Venus-Moon oppositions (suggesting emotional disconnection), and Donald Jr.'s Jupiter rising (offering potential healing through a more jovial approach).
For those interested in psychological healing, the episode demonstrates how awareness of these patterns creates the first opportunity for transformation.
Ready to discover how your own birth chart might reveal family patterns? Explore the profound connections between your planets and your ancestors' unfinished business. Your journey toward healing begins with awareness.
Lisa Hagenbuch can be reached at:
www.futureecho.org // Lisa@futureecho.org
Find out about YOUR important chart placements !
~Alexander can be contacted for Consultation and Coaching sessions. You may contact him via his email: info@astrologyspirit.com or website: https://www.astrologyspirit.com/
You can view his offerings and book directly here: https://www.astrologyspirit.com/book-online
Thank you for listening!
Alexander & Sheila
Welcome to another episode of the Astrology of Family, karma and Relationships podcast. I'm your host, alexander Mallon, and today again we have a wonderful guest astrologer and counselor, lisa Hagenbach, and I'm so happy that you're joining me again today and joining us, lisa. Thank you so much. It's good to see you.
Speaker 2:You too, Alexander. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:So our topic today is astrology and family constellations therapy, and we're going to be using, I think, one family that's quite well known these days, the Trump family and their transgenerational chart work, to explain a little bit about astrology and family constellation work. So we'll jump into our presentation here. So again, astrology and family constellations therapy, the Trump family and transgenerational astrology. And so, lisa, please do tell the audience a little bit about yourself. We did do sort of part one of this a couple of weeks ago, and now this is a little more sort of deep diving. But, folks, let Lisa fill you in about her work.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you so much. So I live in the Chicagoland area and I see clients in several locations. I also do Zoom and in person, so I do astrological consultations and I also do family constellation sessions, which is an energetic modality that helps to put back in order outdated intergenerational patterns that are negatively affecting the client in their daily life. I also do tarot readings, so just kind of blending a number of things together.
Speaker 1:Terrific. Thank you really well. So we have the slide that we showed last time. A little bit, lisa, that this work, this family constellations work and transgenerational astrology work that you specialize in, that it's really focused on ancestral healing and, of course, by the way, you know somebody might notice that you know my podcast, ergo, my inviting Lisa particularly. You know Astrology of Family Karma. I think, lisa, you and I have a similar kind of groove here in how we, what we do with the birth charts for our clients and how we, how we look at the chart and the chart information.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so and what's great about looking at it from a generational perspective is then you can really start to see themes and patterns, and so transgenerational astrology we like to dig into three to four generations going backward, and then so it's great to have the awareness of the patterns and we can see them in the birth charts and we can understand how they're impacting our daily lives. But then what do you do with the awareness? So there are a number of ancestral healing modalities. I specialize in family constellation work, where you can kind of I would say it's like flying a drone above a situation and getting an idea of what the dynamics are involved in it and then using healing statements and ancestral calling in the ancestors to do the shifting with the client so that when things are put back in order in the constellation work, then the patterns can shift and show up differently in the client's outer world experiences and it gives them more peace and some resolution and hopefully some positive unfoldment in their future.
Speaker 1:So this all falls under your other training and experience and expertise in Family Constellations work, particularly, although, of course, to the listener and viewer, family Constellations is not necessarily a branch of astrology in any particular way. It's just a term and a title, and maybe you could tell us a little bit again about the founder of Family Constellations work. It's a therapeutic model, a therapy model.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it will do, because you know it pairs great with astrology, but it really has nothing to do with astrology. So bert hellinger was um, he's german and he he and did a number of different modalities, including being like a jesuit priest, and he's um, and he spent some time with the zulu tribes and it was in that, in blending everything that he knew with his experience with that tribe, that he noticed that there were orders of love within a family system and that if the orders were in, if everybody had their, everybody belonged, everybody had their place and the love flowed from the ancestors down to the descendants, that things tended to go well within their society. That things tended to go well within their society. And then he noticed how in other cultures particularly my teacher will say when agriculture was introduced, that there were different factors introduced and things started to go awry and out of order within the family system.
Speaker 2:And if there's an issue, it doesn't die in one generation. And if there's an issue, it doesn't die in one generation. The issue is picked up by a descendant like a baton to try to make the family system whole and maybe bring in people that were excluded. It didn't start with them, it doesn't belong to them. So the descendant that comes in to do the ancestral work is really giving a gift. Not only, you know, the Lakota tradition believes the healing goes back seven generations and forward seven generations. So one person in this moment doing ancestral healing can not only help the ancestors who are going to come back, you know, in their incarnations, but also to help the descendants to not have to deal with the issues and the traumas that they can be positively shifted so that we don't have this you know we're going to clearly see today, when you don't do the work, it just kind of picks up energetic steam and just keeps intensifying.
Speaker 1:So you bring up an interesting connection from Bert's work with the Zulu tribe and then you make reference to Native American Lakota Sioux tribes and how these cultures and I think you're probably suggesting review their shared ancestry. They have a sense of ancestry, a sense of we call it tribal ancestry. I guess is the view, but the sense that the ancestors of yesterday created our today and we create our tomorrow is a sense of continuation and connection that you know. Maybe I mean being born and raised in the US. Here I don't know that I really had that sense of lineage. We all come from some lineage or some background. Most Americans are not Native Americans and so we come from some other place in the globe and therein we have a great deal of lineage.
Speaker 1:And you know 23andMe and so forth. Most of us have checked our lineage. We have a sense that there is this important ancestry but we're not immediately connected to it. It's almost like a surprising tertiary or secondary thought rising. The tertiary or secondary of thought. But here some of the family constellations, work that you're suggesting, I think you're telling me has a deep connection, a deep reverence for those connections yeah, reverence is a great word, I think you know, because I think we can get too much um.
Speaker 2:You know, americans are very individualistic in a way yes you and feel like they're kind of an island onto themselves. But essentially we're all born into a family system that we are inextricably tied to. You know, you kind of can't cut the cord on the DNA in your family lineage. So whether you're close with them or not, you know there is this shared lineage. We all have this common lineage but we all have individual fates and destinies, and so it's about being within a family system but understanding we leave fates with the other people and continue our destiny.
Speaker 1:By all means, and I think as a practitioner myself of many, many years, you know I definitely see that resonate. You know people ask me what I focus on, particularly in my as an American, this Western Judeo-Christian root that many of us have here to me a chart is a descriptor of my birth, for my family, but it's a descriptor of the family members around me as I'm being born. It's a descriptor of the genetics that's underpinning my birth chart, my existence. The chart describes that whole genetic family tree. I think we chatted about it last time but oftentimes I guess I do that. One of my recent television programs on public broadcasting system under attack right now, by the way, again from certain political factions, a show called Finding your Roots- oh, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:With Dr Henry Gates Jr. I believe it is Finding your Roots, this idea that our lineage is, you know, even, let's say, chromosomal. It's in us, it's us, it's in our very fiber of being.
Speaker 2:We can't escape it. So better to understand it and shift you know what you can in a positive manner. And it pairs so well with astrology, because everyone and everything in your life is contained in the birth chart. So your ancestors are literally in the chart, you know. And for females, like we come in with the eggs that literally carry the DNA of our ancestry. So eggs that literally carry the DNA of our ancestry, so I mean we're, you know, as women, we're kind of walking you know we're a walking family system that we can't escape from.
Speaker 2:Lovely, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So true, you know my degree, my background's in art therapy. I was working as an art therapist for a number of years as I was building my astrology practice, and I also have a bit of training in body-centered gestalt, which, again, I think and how I understood and took some of that training in body-centered gestalt, the gestalt work is this inner, this embodiment, this physical embodiment of what we go through, this physical embodiment of what befalls us. We can sometimes look at life that way life happens at us or to us, and or the interweaving of what we co-create, what happens to us, how we happen to it, how we are interrelating and all of it. I'm sure you and I agree here it has very definite ties to our family and to our upbringing, the genetic piece and then the family modeling piece that has been handed down generationally. So those are sort of found and I agree.
Speaker 1:Why astrology? Why an astrology show? The family constellations work or the body, because charts are this wonderful tool to graphically show these roots, these histories. So let's go back to our presentation really quickly here, if we can so, discussing the ancestral healing modality, the transgenerational astrology, family constellations, how the chart describes our moving through the world and how we have sort of a, an inner template, um, that is in some way set for us, not only genetically, but in this immediate conscious awareness, in this immediate family awareness. So, yeah, you and I were chatting about you know what, who, how can we kind of put this, make this, um, something tangible? And that this particular family tree is a family that we know a lot about. Lately, we hear so much about our President Trump and about his family. So, yeah, there's much to be reviewed perhaps here.
Speaker 2:Many themes that you see being passed down the generational line.
Speaker 1:So we have a whole family tree that you've presented for us. Maybe you want to just touch on this briefly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I found this visual online and I think we're going to also mention that I had done a larger presentation on this for an astrological organization, so a lot of these slides are kind of borrowed from it.
Speaker 2:But there are a couple of things I wanted to point out in this particular visual is that we see, one of the things that is really significant in transgenerational astrology is the name, and oftentimes the name is literally passed down from one generation to the next.
Speaker 2:So, as we see, we have Frederick Trump, and then Frederick or Fred, is, was his son or is his son, I guess I should say is is still, you know, continues and then Fred actually had Fred Jr, and so it's really interesting this is one of the things that's really significant in putting these dysfunctional patterns back in order is when somebody is excluded, and this is a visual representation of Fred Jr being excluded, because there wasn't even a visual of his face, and one of the things from this presentation I had drawn a lot from Mary Trump's book on the family history and that was her father and because Freddie Jr really didn't have the killer instinct you know his dad said he then focused more on creating the businesses through Donald, and so this is a type of, you know, exclusion and so I thought it was really interesting. Number one you can see so many common names in this. In this visual between, like Fred and Donald and Elizabeth have our visual representation of an exclusion which will always cause ripples of disharmony and dysfunction through the family system.
Speaker 1:So, for those who are just listening to our program on podcast and not watching this on YouTube, we have a little graphic family tree. And was this graphic, this family Trump family tree? Was this taken from Mary's book this?
Speaker 2:family Trump family tree. Was this taken from Mary's book? No, I think it was. I think up at the top it was. It was a bit. It was a family tree that I found just a visual of online.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering, when you mentioned that Frederick, that Frederick Jr, whose face is not shown in this visual, he's he's, as you said, excluded. I was wondering you know who presented this? That the junior is excluded has no photograph here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess I think it's the National Journal. I see up top it. Just I liked it because it just well, we were focusing more just on Donald in a way. So we, you know it had him in the center and so, yeah, it was a visual, but I thought it was for purposes of what we're talking about it's. It was just kind of interesting to me that for people watching on YouTube, you can, you can see that you know there's no visual image of him.
Speaker 1:Of Frederick Jr. Yeah, so you know. That's why, when you were discussing this earlier, mary who wrote the book, mary Trump, who wrote the book about Donald, one of many books out there about President Trump, but her father was Frederick Trump Jr. That's why I know that. That's where I heard the story. He wasn't a killer. He wasn't going to be the one that Frederick Sr would pass on the fortune, the lineage, the business empire. It wasn't going to go to Frederick Jr because he didn't have the killer instinct. I had heard that somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she said, in the family there were killers and losers. And so if you were not a killer, you were a loser, and there's stories about how he was treated in the family lineage.
Speaker 1:So, astrologically, you have a slide here that kind of directs our attention that there are several prominent themes in these astrological charts of Frederick and Fred, the Sun and Donald and Donald Jr that those who are studying astrology might want to focus on the Venus, mars and the Pluto in these charts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there just seem to be some really common themes and for the three generations that we're primarily going to focus on although we're bringing, you know, don Jr into this as well I think each of starting with Frederick, who would be Donald's grandfather, I think you know he exemplified the Mars theme, and then Fred, donald's father, more the Venus, and then, I think, donald more the Pluto. So it was for purposes of this talk, those are three planets I really wanted to, kind of, you know, hone in on and we can discuss together and see the themes, the repetitive themes in those three.
Speaker 1:It might serve well for the audience also those who might not know astrology really well to understand what these three planets in a birth chart can symbolize. I mean, I think most people are going to generally understand. You know, from modern musical media you know Venus and Mars, right Right. But maybe we should just clarify what Venus symbolizes, mars symbolizes and Pluto symbolizes in our birth charts.
Speaker 2:Sure. So Venus rules love and money, if you will love the ability to receive, attract and then money, resources, value systems. So those are common themes, with venus very feminine in nature, and so, um then, whereas mars is very masculine in nature, mars represents anything that we desire to, and it has a lot to do with work and independence and risk-taking. It's very much a business type of energy, but it's also it can be, you know, assertive, if not aggressive. It's, you know, kind of the God of war, so the killer.
Speaker 1:Venus, the goddess of love. Mars, the goddess of love mars, the god right yeah exactly good point.
Speaker 2:And then with pluto, is it thought to be another octave more of the martian energy? But pluto has a lot to do with power and control, um, on the positive side, kind of stepping into empowerment, and there is a lot of transformation that occurs with Pluto energy and there's a lot of potential for transformation and so that can be taken. You know, I always say I don't look at anything as good or bad as just energy, so you can take it in either direction. You know, on the one hand Pluto can be like let's create conditions that are good for all, or versus like let's focus on what's good for me.
Speaker 1:So, if I may, those of you out there who listened or watched my program before you might know and Lucy, I think you do know I'm a very, very avid backyard astronomer how I found my way into astrology decades and decades ago. And you know I like to look at the astronomy of things too to tell me like why is Venus the goddess of love astrologically? Why is Venus about money, love? Why is Mars about action? Why is Pluto about? Why is Mars about action? Why is Pluto about deep themes of power and generational?
Speaker 1:You know Venus's cycle is about a year and a half right and its orbit around the sun, mars orbit is two years, pluto's orbit 248 years. So in astrology, venus and its placement in our charts describes relational themes, relating themes, connecting themes, social themes. We could say every year and a half, every year and three quarters, that the average person will have a Venus return to where it was when they were born, their birth chart, and we're going to review our relational themes. There is a coincidence of where we stand relationally family, love, relationships A little tougher to see in common parlance, I think. But Mars is a two-year orbit and Mars cycles tend to coincide every two years with reviewing our career, reviewing our job, reviewing our J-O-B, reviewing our title, reviewing our efforts, reviewing our actions, reviewing our directed willpower. And Pluto a 248-year orbit is a generational and intergenerational planet, so when we look at Pluto cycles, we look at major generational cultural themes that we're born into as well. So I don't know if that sort of rounds things off. Maybe you have other thoughts about it.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, that's great, yeah, that's fabulous.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, moving forward Frederick's chart, we have Frederick Trump born March 14th of 1869. We don't have a time Born in Germany, march 14th of 1869. So he's a Pisces sun sign. March 14th means he's a few days away from being in Aries.
Speaker 1:Aries are known to be the beginning of the year, the beginning of the growing season, and Aries are the transition point. You can think of the end of March, the vernal equinox. Every year we transition from four or five months of winter, maybe even stasis during winter. You could say Pisces.
Speaker 1:I always think of Pisces as a winter sign. The tail end of it's a water sign of the rain falls on top of the snow and ice. Winter breaks and gives way to spring. Falls on top of the snow and ice, winter breaks and gives way to spring. So Pisces is a transitional sign of Frederick's chart and Aries is this sign of every springtime breaking forward, busting loose. I literally lived in the Catskill Mountains for a number of years and we had I love to tell the story we had about four foot of hard pack snow and then suddenly, late March, we had nine inches of rain overnight. And what happens to four foot of mountain hard pack snow with nine inches of rain is torrents and terrible floods that we see happening so often now worldwide in our nation, but it's that ripping through the breakthrough energy.
Speaker 2:So Frederick senior, born in Germany 1869. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about him. You know, with his Aries energy, moon and Aries and the sun being more on the cusp, that's very much an Aries thing to do. Aries energy is more like a risk taker or because it rules firemen and policemen and it's like, well, what would this adventure be like? Oh, let's go to America. So at the age of 23, he became a US citizen and he moved to Washington State at the time of the gold rush.
Speaker 2:So, I don't know if he was originally going to mine for gold, but shortly after moving there he opened up a number of businesses, which is very much Aries energy, so he opened up restaurants and brothels and he supplied alcohol to the miners in British Columbia, so the alcohol would go back to the Pisces energy.
Speaker 2:So I find that interesting. And so he went back to the area of Germany which is around the area of where Bavaria is, and he met his future wife and then they moved to the US for his businesses and then she became homesick, so they moved back to Germany. But because he had not performed his mandatory military service which is again a very Martian theme, mars rules the military because he had avoided doing that, he either had to do the service which he didn't want to do, and so he left the country and came back to live in the United States. And this is how we have the Trump family more settled in the United States. He married Elizabeth Christ and they moved to New York and eventually settled, you know, in the Queens area of New York and he actually, frederick actually ended up dying of the Spanish flu at age 48. So now we have a pandemic theme kind of introduced into the family lineage, which is a theme that we will continue with President Trump.
Speaker 1:So I'm hearing three themes, I'm hearing immigration. Actually I'm hearing four themes.
Speaker 1:I'm hearing Germany and something I don't know if you mentioned yet, but that time of Frederick's birth, 1869, 1871, was the German unification. It was the German Empire being born in 1871, and Prussia and Germany and Denmark and those surrounding nations, so the whole sort of German Empire was born in 1871. And in those years of 1870s Germany suffered a terrible financial crisis which probably would have had a young man, you know, gold rush, a son of a man who's a good businessman, one could say, and maybe one could say a profiteer. And I think I did read something about Frederick that suggested he was kind of a profiteer. You know how could he make money in any which way, you know? Alcohol, restaurants, brothels, whatever will make a buck survival, one could say too. And then I hear he gets married, moves back to Germany, but because he didn't provide military service, Germany basically kicked him out. He finds himself back in the US, Then he dies of the Spanish flu. If we could look at the chart, yeah, and it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I could just a couple of other notes on that. He was known in terms of he was very much, you know, very clever in terms of with the businesses. When one area would kind of dry up in the gold rush, he would actually, they said, he would actually put his restaurant or brothel, you know, he would actually float it to another area and then start all over and in another area. So he was very clever and very you know how to take advantage of and stay, you know, one step ahead of his competition, if you will.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that when I did do some reading at some point in the last year or two, do some reading at some point in the last year or two, uh, and yeah, I recall what you're saying, that the implication in the history maybe wikipedia, whatever it was that he was um shrewd, he was a shrewd businessman, he was sly, he was shrewd and he was a survivor.
Speaker 1:but I do believe I do believe he did go uh to alaska for the regarding the gold rush, like that was. That was the the impetus, so interestingly, Venus themes, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, so the Venus theme here in Frederick's chart with his son, son in Pisces, with that Venus in Pisces for Frederick's chart, and then we have that Marshall theme, the theme of the military Mars opposite his Mercury Mars on the nodes, and his Sun is nearly in the sign of Aries. His Moon is in the sign of Aries. He's a new Moon baby. He's born just after the new Moon and that Sun is only days away from being born. March 14th, his birthday 1869, frederick. He's almost an Aries Sun sign with an Aries Moon. So there's a lot of Aries energy again, although we could say it's like hidden, it's Piscean-ly hidden. Is he Aries? Is he aggressive? Is he directive? Is he a survivor? Is he entrepreneurial? All those Aries traits most certainly. But we do see a little bit. He knows how to put on a certain show that Mars is very prominent folks, that Mars and that Saturn are very prominent in this guy's chart, frederick Sr. So that Mars-North Node is a powerful theme and that Mars and South Node-Mercury conjunction are T-squared at Pluto. So here we have an interesting thing. I noticed Frederick's Pluto was in the sign of Taurus, so we know we're dealing with a great-grandfather for some, because that Pluto generational planet. It spends. I think it's like what is it now, 32 years in the sign of Taurus. It's a generational planet indicating a strong conceptual generational zeitgeist.
Speaker 1:For reference sake, those listeners and viewers all have Pluto, either in Libra, virgo or Leo. If you're born, if you're a boomer I'm born just past, I think we're born just past the boomer generation. The boomers all had Pluto and Leo generation, and those in the 40s and 30s and even in the 20s had a Pluto in Cancer. So Frederick preceded that. This really is, you know, that turning point of the 1800s into the 1900s. That's interesting too, but that Pluto is square, that Mars a square inner tension between Mars and Pluto. So, as you said, lisa, mars-pluto themes that are Mars-Pluto-Venus themes that are very prominent in the Trump family lineage, mars and Leo, by the way. Make note right Mars and Leo for Frederick.
Speaker 2:That'll come back.
Speaker 1:Frederick Sr, the great-grandfather, now for Junior. Yeah, in Fred Trump's chart we have that Mars and Capricorn, but just fast-forwarding. So Frederick, the one who moved from Germany and brought the lineage to the US, mars and Leo conjoined the north node of Dharma and Karma. Mars and Leo conjoin the north node of Dharma and Karma. Donald Trump, mars and Leo conjunct his ascendant, don Jr. Mars and Leo approaching his ascendant in a conjunction of his ascendant as well. So again, those Mars themes intergenerational, as you said, are really, really powerful for the Trump legacy.
Speaker 2:So Fred Trump, octoberober 11th 1905, that's donald's father. Yes, donald's father. So if we go into some history, of course he was born in the bronx and he incorporated um, a corporation. He had to. He was too young to do it on his own under his own name, so he did that. He incorporated um with his mother and so one of the great things and the reason why I had kind of put a lot of Venus themes um with Fred number one, he when he began the business, it actually was officially under his mother's name at the start, but one of the things that he took great advantage of is the government funding for building during the depression.
Speaker 2:So again, a little bit of a pandemic theme in a sense of like a great tragedy and from a cultural perspective. So he took, he was really shrewd as well. He knew how to work the courts which you know, libra, that's ruled by Venus right. He had great political connections and business contracts. But he went to Virginia Beach to build the first development, federal housing, administration, development with government money, to the point where he was investigated for profiteering by a US Senate committee in 1954, ended up ruining his reputation. So he was investigated. I put down that he saw the seams of what he could get away with. He wasn't technically breaking the law. This is again a theme that I think you know continues down the generational line but he wasn't, you know, he wasn't investigated. And again, with a little bit maybe with minorities and immigration, he was sued by the US Justice Civil Rights Division for not renting to minorities rights division for not renting to minorities.
Speaker 1:That was a big one. Having been born in New York in my 20s and 30s, that lawsuit in New York state for not renting to minorities, that was the tip of the iceberg. There was a lot more that he did to minorities to defraud them of their money in so many ways from Sunday and eventually, after a number of years nearly, I think roughly, I'm giving a throwing it out of my memory like about a decade or so. I believe that the Trump family was not a good name in New York. You know that New Yorkers they were, but they were not loved in New York for especially this, especially this horrible disenfranchising and ripping off and financially profiteering off of minority suffering, that was not a big name builder for the Trumps.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, and he was really, again, shrewd, very good at skirting.
Speaker 2:You know he didn't officially break the law, but he he skirted it enough and cause it really ended up ruining his reputation.
Speaker 2:And one of the other things I found really interesting about Fred was he was really highly influenced by Dr Norman Vincent Peale, who wrote the Power of Positive Thinking, so, and that was using self-confidence as kind of a life philosophy only allowed positive emotions, and so you really weren't able, you know it. It again is one of those. We talked about it in the first episode, more about epigenetics, I think, and creating a culture of like everything had to be. You know, by all accounts, he could be pretty mean spirited in his family interactions, but in terms of his business, for sure, like he just put on the positive emotions, everything was great, and even when it wasn't, you know, and so that I think is is a genetic, I mean turn on like kind of a genetic marker, a key, if you will. That I think definitely carried and he definitely would have had a major influence on President Trump, donald Trump and how he presents as everything is the best.
Speaker 1:Interesting too, lisa, that Dr Norman Vincent Peale in his book the Power of Positive Thinking. That was a groundswell, groundbreaking book in the 70s, particularly 60s, 70s. Right, for those who don't know, because this goes back a little bit, it was one of the first super successful self-help, self-supporting, psychological thinking, self-help books of our era.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I found that really kind of interesting. And he was a worker, he a hard worker, he worked all the time by all accounts, and so those were kind of the big themes in his history that stood out to me, and then we can look at his chart, yeah, so some standouts in his chart.
Speaker 1:You're talking about the Venus and the Mars and then also that Pluto placement. Let me move my picture aside here for a moment.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then the Pluto here opposite that Mars and square that Venus. So actually I'm noticing, lisa, um, what's called a grand cross in fred donald trump's, father, fred trump's chart. A grand cross of pluto opposite mars, uranus and, uh, those planets t square, uh, rather grand cross I should say, to a venus moon. So we've got a big grand cross in this chart of four planets that are square to each other.
Speaker 2:Mars.
Speaker 1:Uranus square moon, moon in Pisces, almost Aries.
Speaker 2:Moon in.
Speaker 1:Pisces almost the sign of Aries Moon. 25 Pisces square the Pluto, pluto square the Venus. So a big box or a grand cross in this chart. I don't know what can. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, especially that moon To me, the moon opposite Venus in Pisces. Pisces can put on the rose colored glasses, right. So if you go back to the power of positive thinking, everything is always rosy and I think it was part. Venus is very much an attractor, right. So I think it helped him to attract contacts and money and all of that because he could put on a good story. You know he's a storyteller. He could put, he could say you know, everything's great and this is what we're going to do. We have all these big plans, but was it actually actually accurate all the time? Probably not.
Speaker 1:So Venus symbolizes love and loving relations. So, in a family therapeutic kind of a way, I wonder how do you see Venus and how do you see moon in a person's chart? When it comes to themes of family connections, let's not forget we just reviewed one of the things that the Trump family was super, super famous for in not a good way was their disenfranchising, not renting to minorities in Manhattan and in New York City area. So Moon, I think they say, is Moon mommy and nurturing, and Venus is love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, except, you know, I think, of all these energies operate on a spectrum, right. So, on the very positive, he could have been a very loving, supportive type of father. By all accounts, you don't hear a lot of that with Fred and you know. And Mary went into great detail because she spent a lot of time, you know, with their grandparents, but one of the things she said is that he was absent a lot. Right, his moon is in the sixth house of work, so he put a lot of his love and support probably into his job and into his work. So he put a lot of his love and support probably into his job and into his work. And so I think he was a strong man, but I don't know that I would necessarily say it was the type of strength that works well in the family line, because there's something in the family constellations where we talk about the strength of men, but that's the strength of somebody that would die for their family, would you know, but is also very and make the money, but also very loving and supportive.
Speaker 2:And when you he was, you know we go back to that killers and losers, you know, putting people in two camps you know there aren't a lot of great stories about him being the warm and fuzzy type, so I think he kind of took the Pisces. I think of it more as absence versus I don't know. That he had a substance abuse problem, which is addictions can be another thing with Pisces, but I don't think he was very present.
Speaker 1:So I look at again. This is an important configuration, this grand cross Anyone with a grand cross in a chart it's a standout configuration those four planets that are square or 90 degrees to each other and four planets that are in opposition to each other. So that grand cross some astrologers used to call it sort of feeling as though you're born on nailed to the cross or you're carrying a cross, this kind of envisionment. But what it means astrologically I think most astrologers would concur is opposing forces. Opposing forces are oppositions and I always say a square like moon to Mars or moon to Pluto or Pluto to Venus, a square is like inner tension. I always think of a wall and a ceiling, inner tension. So astrologically it suggests that Fred Trump, donald Trump's father, venus opposing Moon, that there was some emotional distancing or disconnect from his affections, that this is not a man who flows I mean technically, astrology 101, I think if people were to read, my natal Moon is opposing my natal Venus, my birth chart, natal Venus. Some oppositional force was happening when this person's born. That has them not feel emotionally loved or emotionally nurtured or their themes are in resonance or moving. Something might have happened emotionally in early childhood for Fred Donald Trump's father. That did not have Fred feel emotionally in flow.
Speaker 1:In fact, the chart that says something extraordinarily explosive. There's something explosive here. Pluto is a planet that was discovered when we discovered plutonium 1930. So Pluto, plutocrats, plutonium that's what Pluto means for humans that are becoming aware of it as a planet.
Speaker 1:Pluto, plutonium, Pluto is about themes of the underworld, like the mythos of Persephone being stolen to the underworld by the devil or Satan or what have you, and that Persephone was, against her will, held and sexualized is a theme about Pluto as well. So we have themes of power, personal power, pluto opposite Mars, fred's will and this big grand cross of Venus and Mars and Moon. So Moon mommy relationship, venus affections, mars action, Pluto power. The grand cross says there's major trouble here regarding Venus themes, pluto themes, mars themes and here emotional Moon themes for Fred. And I wondered, I wonder, if we go back to Frederick Sr from Germany, what does his chart show? Oh well, we have a Mercury South node, venus bundle here opposite Mars square. Pluto, mars square, pluto for Frederick Sr, mars square, mars opposing Pluto for Fred. So I'm beginning to see what you've shown on your slides here, lisa, that these themes of Pluto, mars, venus are big themes in this family.
Speaker 1:So again, astrologically there are positives to every archetype, right there's a positive manifestation, the loving, and then there's the, the challenging or the trauma related. So what? What would we say about pluto, mars, venus that are in grand cross?
Speaker 2:trauma related to each other yeah, you know, in venus's I was really struck by venus's in virgo and virgo energy, you know, in Venus's I was really struck by Venus's in Virgo and Virgo energy, you know, is very much about creating order but having it. It's got a critical eye right and the order is how the Virgo wants the order to be. So love was expressed like. To me I can imagine if you were a certain way, if you fit inside the Virgo box, then you know, and I think Donald did for Fred, because he saw in him somebody that he could, you know, donald, he could take the family business and expand it and grow it and he could, you know, he had a huge influence on him. Whereas with Freddie Jr, you know, his kind of his namesake, you know, didn't see the killer instinct in him. So could he give him love? Because he didn't. From the story, fred's wife was very much like she would come in to um, to this this is Donald's mother.
Speaker 2:Donald's. Uh no, I'm sorry, this would have. Oh, I'm sorry, I think this was. It was a story about one of the um mothers would go into the the her daughter-in-law's home and do like the white glove and look for dust, if you will. So I think that might have been. No, I actually think that might have been Fred's wife who did that. Donald's mother, you're saying yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we're onto something here with the theme of critical love or abandoning love or pushing away love or refracted love. That's what I'm hearing, you know. And going back to our presentation really quick, to see if we can see some of these charts, so Donald's father, at least we can, great, one of these days we've got to go look at Donald's mother, but Donald's father has Venus opposing moon. It's sort of an opposition, a seesaw, a challenge between Fred. This is again Donald Trump's father. Fred chart, fred Trump an opposition of emotion or kind of a flow problem, a lack of flow. I always think of oppositions as a seesaw ride, either a good seesaw ride or maybe a bad seesaw ride. Well, here this grand cross suggests a challenge emotionally that Fred himself had had in his youth. So I'm wondering if we go back to fred, to, to, uh, to fred's father, frederick emotions too, because of the square to the moon.
Speaker 2:You know that uranus mars can blow up right and it can be very intense. It's opposite pluto, so that would be another thing so right.
Speaker 1:So you're saying there's that pl, that Pluto opposite that Mars, that Mars-Pluto opposite square, that moon square the Venus, explosive emotions, I believe I had heard correctly, I'm sure from this chart, that Donald's father Fred had quite a cruel streak. You know, in fact, the sign of Virgo is known to be quite critical, maybe even sometimes devolving into cruelty. Every sign has its most beautiful side. Every sign has its most destructive or trauma-based side. When we see hard aspects like this in a chart, it leaps off the page to me as potential root of trauma. So again we said Pluto opposing Mars. That can be an indicator of explosive think of plutonium like Hiroshima, explosive violence or explosive aggression. I look at Frederick Sr and I go back to his chart here and see that Pluto square Mars, pluto square Mercury, pluto not square Venus, but it's involved in a little complex there to me, frankly and that Saturn squaring Venus for Frederick Sr. So there again is a chart that's very full of challenge. What leaps off the page when you view it? That Mars opposite Mercury, square Pluto and.
Speaker 1:Saturn singleton up here by itself. It's called actually a bucket chart. Some would say it's not a true bucket chart, but I look at it as a bucket chart One hemisphere occupied and one singleton up top Saturn. Saturn is survival, saturn is rigor. Not long after Frederick Sr was born, germany was plunged into a terrible financial debt situation its own. What do you call it? Financial collapse?
Speaker 2:Yeah, kind of like the depression that Fred was able to take advantage of.
Speaker 1:So Frederick left Germany himself great-grandfather for Junior left Germany because of financial difficulties and financial gain. Frederick opened brothels and restaurants and was gold prospecting and serving gold prospectors and a number of shady deals. I think history, if we go back to history, we see a number of shady deals. This is a chart Frederick Senior of Saturn survival themes, pluto, persephone survival themes for Frederick. And then we see Pluto, mars, moon, venus for Fred survival themes again, control, domination and safety survival themes. Yeah, so when you're working with, let's say, with a person like Donald's chart and we go back to in history, to his dad's chart in the family constellations work, how do we join these or start the Pluto-Mars themes, I guess, start to percolate?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think if we, you know, if we carry these themes because with Frederick, yeah, I don't know. I mean we don't, obviously he's older, we don't know as much, but I mean he kind of started this whole entrepreneurial business man, he definitely took advantage of it. But then we see with Fred, you know, being investigated for going right up to the edge of the law, and then when we get to President Trump, you know he's the first president that is a convicted felon, right? So if we don't catch these themes and try to positively shift them, we can see them just grow in intensity and you know you know, I kind of when I typically what happens if?
Speaker 2:if something isn't addressed, it's almost like you turn up the dial a little bit down the generational line I, I think a word um sort of sums it all up Familiar, what is familiar Our habituation, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And you had mentioned that in our last presentation that the nodes in these gentlemen's chart, all of them have very prominent nodal moon's nodes, the moon's nodes conjoined in opposite vital parts of the chart, and the nodes describe dharma and karma. They describe soul evolution issues.
Speaker 2:They do. And then in this transgenerational work, when you have a planet conjunct, the south node or the north node, then not only are you taking on just your family of origins issues potentially, but you're taking on just your family of origins issues potentially, but you're taking on the whole family lineage to either continue the theme or to interrupt the pattern.
Speaker 2:So it's something we see, you know it's when you have planets conjunct the nodes it's really significant and we have this across four generations in the Trump men significant and we have this across four generations in the trump men.
Speaker 1:Have you heard that, um, when a planet is conjoined, someone's nodes north or south node that there is uh with the north node, uh, a sense of promise or possibility, but conversely, with the south node, some kind of uh demotion or or flat tire, something, a problem with that. Like it considers it a south load, conjunct, considers difficulty or detriment or some kind of lineage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've heard that and something to definitely to be worked out, I think. Also, when you have a planet square the nodes, then we're also looking at going to shore something up because something was missed and there's a need to balance that out in the squares In transgenerational work. If you have a planet conjunct the north node, you're taking that family lineage theme and you're continuing it on in some way. But when it's conjunct the South Node, there you are interrupting the family lineage pattern.
Speaker 2:So the interesting thing with Donald, because he's born on that eclipse, right, he's got a planet that is conjunct the South and the North Node, the Sun and the Moon are conjunct the South and North node in his chart, and so he is, you know, and if you look at you know, fred was somewhat well-known, especially in New York, right. I don't know that Frederick ever made you know it to the being famous, if you will. But if we look at you know, president, he's now president twice, right. So he's been able to just kind of take this family theme and in one way exemplify it and has the potential to interrupt it. I don't know, I think he's definitely. Maybe, you know, you can make arguments that he's doing both. He's definitely exemplifying it, for sure.
Speaker 1:Well, donald Trump, certainly famously or infamously, since he's born during a lunar eclipse. And I love to again the astronomy of it. It is the astronomy of it. What's a lunar eclipse? We have the sun setting or rising, let's say we have the sun on one side of the sky, the moon opposite, a full moon, and we have the earth in between. And so, since the earth is exactly in between, the earth casts its shadow on the moon. That's what a lunar eclipse is. So the earth is exactly in between. The earth casts its shadow on the moon. That's what a lunar eclipse is. So the earth's shadow is covering the moon.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think that's an interesting, as all astrology is a metaphor where for donald the ego, the sun light of consciousness, the birth of your, your spirit energy, is in some way opposite to your moon, your gut, your plexus, your soul energy, and the earth is smack in between.
Speaker 1:The earth's shadow is covering that emotion. So there's another theme of emotions being covered or obscured, and I think you were sharing with Fred's chart, that grand cross, that grand cross involving the moon and Venus, again, oppositional forces or, you know, obscuring forces. It suggests again that lineage of trauma. You know, I also infamously use wide orbs when I work with clients. And while no other astrologer sees Fred Donald's father, while no other astrologer sees Fred Donald's father, fred's moon at 25 Pisces and his south node Saturn conjunction at 26, 27 Aquarius. No astrologer sees that it's a conjunction, but I see it as a connection, I see it as an alignment here, I see it as a Saturn south node moon complex opposing Fred's Venus and it says there is definitely some theme here around emotion and how he processes emotion, what he does with his feelings as well, as we see with with donald, what he does with his emotions and his feelings and, by the way, what they do with women.
Speaker 1:Well, a theme, a theme with with frederick, uh, opening, you know, and maintaining brothels. You know what the family does with energy and feminine, you know. Not only, by the way, is the moon governing women, and in medical astrology, the womb, the moon. But Pluto, they say also is the feminine. Pluto I look at as matriarchy. Moon is mother and mommy in the womb, motherhood, women. Pluto is matriarchy.
Speaker 1:If we look at the Pluto complex in this family there's a and or what relationship each of these gentlemen have towards matriarchy and women's power are a big theme in all of these charts. Maybe the one chart that we haven't gotten to yet in brief, I'll just zip forward for a second is Donald Jr. Here we do have kind of a moon-Pluto complex here. They're not too far in the sky from each other. In Jr's chart, moon 21, virgo, pluto 16 Libra and the north node there 10 Libra. So I'm starting to see, with that Libra north node, pluto, what you pointed out about Pluto being powerful. It's squaring the nodes or squaring Donald Jr's sun. So I wonder what you might share about Donald Jr's chart.
Speaker 2:You know he's. Yeah, I mean, all likelihood he's going to just continue the family lineage because of that conjunction. Um, and although you know the interesting thing about, about donald jr, he doesn't. He's definitely um, I I don't see him as being able to stand in his power like I do see in President Trump and Fred and Frederick, because the flip side of being a very powerful person is feeling like you're controlled.
Speaker 2:And so it'd be a question I would have for Donald Jr how powerful does he feel? Probably more powerful than Eric, you know, in terms of just what you hear President Trump say about them. But I would question how powerful he feels, how much in control of his destiny he feels, and he's overshadowed by a very strong, prominent father, you know, whereas Fred Trump, with Donald, I feel like he you know he needed Donald to expand him more, but I don't know that Jr is going to do that for President Trump, I mean time will tell. He definitely has the Pluto theme I just don't see him as capable or as able to stand in the power, and I would think he would feel a little bit more controlled by circumstances, would be my guess controlled by circumstances would be my guess.
Speaker 1:So for Donald Trump Jr we have December 31st of 1977, 5.20 in the evening in Manhattan, new York. For those of you who are listening. What's interesting about Donald Jr's chart also is that Jupiter-Black Moon conjunction, but Jupiter opposite his Sun-Venus conjunction.
Speaker 1:So, what opens and closes Junior's chart is a Jupiter-Sun-Venus opposition and Jupiter-Jove Sun-Venus pleasure. So the themes of pleasure and joviality and fun and play. Well, we have seen some of that with Donald Jr in different ways, but that seems to be a driving force in Donald Trump Jr's chart. With Donald Trump Sr, we don't see that. We don't see that joviality. What we see is Marshall, pluto, mars.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:The Marshall piece is really taking over, and again.
Speaker 2:Going back to the theme, right, is he a?
Speaker 1:killer or a loser. Ah, so, okay, thank you. So in the Family Constellations work and in the Trump family verbiage, you're saying that Frederick was the one who had reiterated, I guess, the teachings of Frederick Senior, which was there are winners and losers. So you were saying that that idea of winner or loser came from Fred, from Donald Trump's father.
Speaker 2:That's the first time that I had heard that and again, we don't really know as much about Frederick or Fred or Fred as much. Or Fred handed down the line to the killers versus the losers because her family was cut out of the family, or they tried to cut them out of the family. Fortune, which is again that Venus theme. So when you brought, when you brought in, you know that jovial aspect for Don Jr.
Speaker 2:Or Don Jr, cause you know there've been accounts of him partying right and you know so I mean that might not be viewed as having the killer instinct you know.
Speaker 1:Right and strictly astrological parlance, right, jupiter prominent to a person's sun is going to indicate some kind of freedom Jupiter theme, or playful theme, or Jupiter-Jove jovial theme, you know, from hunting to doing drugs, to partying, to raves, you know, to skiing, whatever we see with Donald Trump Jr, he doesn't seem to have a militaristic, except he did go big game hunting with Jupiter, again as adventure, by the way, and Jupiter rules large animals, right. So Jupiter again is adventure, by the way, and Jupiter rules large animals, right. So Jupiter, he goes big game hunting.
Speaker 1:And notice, again, jupiter, sextile Mars, there's a quality, a semi-sextile Mars, there's a quality of, you know, big animals and Mars murder. But he'd go big game hunting. He likes to be this playboy entrepreneur, donald Trump Jr, and that theme of Jupiterian sort of I think, of pan or something like that, you know, right, a puck, pan or puck, one of these kinds of you know he's sort of a playful devil compared to Donald Trump Sr, which people were just saying recently, uh, I think in the media that, um, they, people who know Trump, say Trump say he never laughs, he never smiles, there's never a genuine.
Speaker 2:You don't see it a lot. You know he puts on that face, you know it's interesting. I mean for his father, the power of positive thinking, you know everything's always great. But yeah, he's kind of got that set jaw right and he wants to be a strong man.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I mean those of us who practice astrology. It's tough to miss, in terms of again astrology 101, as I call it, with Donald Trump's chart, that the ascendant of a chart describes one's physical body and one's look.
Speaker 1:And any planet there describes or highlights and one's look and any planet there describes or highlights. So Pluto can be private or tough to read or controlling. Leo rising for Donald Trump can be egoic, Of course. 29 Leo is Regulus, the heart of the line, the fixed star, one of the four royal stars of Egypt. It's particularly about monarchy and rulership. His Mars is right there. Mars is orange astronomically and Donald is definitely, quite literally, orange chooses orange, at least. And so there is that aggressive he is. You know, Donald likes to be the strong man and be aggressive. Donald Jr, as you said, maybe he doesn't carry on that family tradition because he is kind of a playful partier, Although that Mars is still in Leo.
Speaker 2:So we have I mean it'll be interesting to see if he has political aspirations. I don't know, it doesn't seem. I don't see it as much in him.
Speaker 1:I agree. I think an astrologer would see that Jupiter rising. Yeah, how does he rise in a jupiterian way? Freedom play independence, positivity, jove jove is rising. It's interesting. For don jr jupiter is rising and just after jupiter rises, mars rises for john don jr. So first we get the joviality, then we get the Mars. Yeah, mars and Leo. Like like Donald has that Mars and Leo, like great grandfather Frederick has.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, right.
Speaker 1:So you would? You talked also about the family themes uh, consciously involving, and how they may or may not consciously evolve.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. I mean, I think that you know, you can. The patterns can either consciously evolve or unconsciously evolve. Unconsciously evolve, um, and I see in the, in these, in, not only in the charts you know the interactions in the charts but just the way that this is playing out that they seem to be really intensely evolving to me a little bit more unconsciousiers.
Speaker 2:Um, and taking um, you know, you could say, you know I, I put in the slide opportunistic in terms of people's misfortunes, but I think it was more in the gold rush. You know, taking that money and and having him spend it on either a way to escape through alcohol or, you know, with pleasure with the brothels, and then, in terms of with Fred, he took, he took advantage of the misfortunes from a, from a societal perspective of the great depression. I use that to his great advantage. And you know there's a lot that you could say about how that's evolving with President Trump and policies that he's implementing. There's the theme of. This isn't necessarily a psychological theme, but it's interesting that we have the pandemic connections right, um, and that theme of like killers and losers, and with frederick dying during the, the spanish flu time, um, and then with president Trump overseeing COVID-19 and that pandemic, so I thought that was interesting. There's the military. Oh, go ahead.
Speaker 1:Just interjecting that, since you pointed out, venus, pluto, venus, mars and Pluto. In medical astrology, mars and Pluto both deal specifically with pathogens. Particularly, pluto governs, they say, in medical astrology, pluto governs viruses. And so you mentioned, wasn't it, frederick, the great-grandfather for Junior, the one who came from Germany. He died of the Spanish flu at age 48.
Speaker 1:He did yes, yeah, so that pandemic, that great pandemic of the US, where, I think it was, some huge number of people died of the Spanish flu. And then, of course, as you said, donald, don himself, donald himself, you know that Pluto rising in his chart with Mars. Well, donald definitely governed over our pandemic, and how?
Speaker 2:we handled it Right, exactly. So I just found that kind of an interesting theme, definitely with the military theme, which is very Martian, you know, serving versus non-serving, because you know Frederick didn't serve. Well, to my knowledge, none of the Trumps have served, correct, I think?
Speaker 1:you're right.
Speaker 2:Then Donald was also sent. You know, Mars is a two to two and a half year cycle, so his mother became very ill when he was two and a half and so by all accounts he was kind of raised by a nanny to a great extent, and this is donald, donald president trump, yeah, and then, um, because of his behavior, he was sent to a military school.
Speaker 2:So he graduated from the military school, um, yeah, I think he was sent um away. Let's see, he was sent at age 13, uh, sent to new york military academy. Due to behavioral problems at home and in school, um, so there is that theme of you know, and now he presides over the military. So you know the military very martian theme, um, and then you know there's you could argue that there is an abusive quality that is psychologically going down um the Trump family line in terms of labeling people killers and losers and um the accusations against President Trump. Um, he has been found liable um in civil cases for sexual abuse and defamation and for business also wanting to build the wall to keep the immigrants out. And now we have alligator Alcatraz. You know women's rights have been greatly taken away under his administration. So you know there's there's some common themes that just seem to be intensifying.
Speaker 1:Interesting too. It occurs to me. You know that Donald President Trump went to a military academy and yet didn't serve. That his great grant, that is, that his grandfather from Germany avoided service in Germany and therefore wound up in the US. I forget about Fred and whether Fred served.
Speaker 2:You said none of them have served in the military, to my knowledge. I mean, I don't know if there was a, you know if that was an issue during his time, but you know, to my knowledge, none of them have served in the military.
Speaker 1:But also all four of these men. Frederick came from Germany, fred, his son, president Trump and Don Jr all have a prominent Mars in their charts, all four of them. And Mars rules the hero, the policeman. Mars is martial. Mars can talk about courage. Firemen, many, many, many firemen, firewomen, firemen, many firemen have Mars prominent in their chart. Now it's interesting Pluto also governs things like the CIA, the FBI, things that are behind the scenes. I recall, for instance, that George W has a Pluto-Mercury rising in his chart and his father, george Sr, the head of the director of the CIA. I believe it was CIA, right, not FBI.
Speaker 1:Yeah it was CIA under you know sort of Persephone Pluto, the ruler of the underworld, what's not seen or readily seen. So both CIA, fbi I've had DEA agent clients and FBI clients and people who are sort of secret agents kind of a thing Pluto Pluto also rules the mob and mafia and crime, organizations that are under the cover or not easily seen.
Speaker 1:And again, all these gentlemen, all four of the Trump family, have strong, as you said, pluto themes. Lastly, pluto ruling viruses. Pluto also ruling assassins, hidden killers. Mars ruling firemen Gee, wasn't there an event with Donald Trump in a bullet and where a fireman was murdered, where a fireman was killed by the assassin? Yeah, interesting themes, how these Pluto-Mars, mars. So, in terms of the family, constellations, work or healing work, I'm kind of curious. What's the takeaway? It sounds like if we don't do the conscious work, if we don't do the conscious healing, then these familiar traits perpetuate or gain power they can gain power, um, they can perpetuate.
Speaker 2:There can be descendants that come in and tangled with the issues, trying to make it you know whole, um, and you know it's, you know it's. I know we kind of talked about this and we're kind of just describing behaviors and actions without necessarily making you know the moralistic argument for it, except that when these patterns are just not playing, if they're affecting your life in a negative way, then it's always good to go back and see you know what are the themes, and do those themes apply to what's not working in your life, and can and can you try to make it more balanced or whole and healed? Because there's, there's, there's. To me there's like trying to have strength over instead of having strength for something.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's it. Oh, I see, that's what.
Speaker 2:I see in the men. Are they being strong to defend or are they? Being strong to have power over.
Speaker 1:That's a question I kind of think when I work with clients I not rarely use this construct that most of us are not born the Buddha. You know, most of us are not born Christ, conscious or aware or necessarily spiritually evolved. We're kind of all a work in progress and that a birth chart suggests the likelihood of flow and or where there may be challenge to flow, challenge to health or maybe even downright trauma. So I think most astrologers would concur when we see difficult planets In Astrology 101, some planets are called benefic or flowing.
Speaker 1:They're associated with cycles, with elements of our experience that are about growing and developmental flow. And then some planets are concordant with cycles that are about growing and developmental flow, and then some planets are concordant with cycles that are oftentimes about developmental challenge. So we're looking at Pluto-Mars. Traditionally they call them malefics or challenge planets that imply the potential for trauma. So are you a heroic fireman or are you lighting the fires? I think you were making references before. In looking at a chart, can we know the difference of whether a person is the fireman, the hero and or the one lighting the fires?
Speaker 2:You know I think it's for me I find that very difficult to just look at a chart and you can know the themes, but you don't really know how they're using it until you interact with them.
Speaker 1:The themes, but you don't really know how they're using it until you interact with them. That might be where modern astrology since the 20s and 30s say the charts don't compel, they impel or they're more likely to show potentials, but we don't know the free will that.
Speaker 2:there's always free will, but there are potentials, there are genetic markers, there is epigenetics. No-transcript.
Speaker 1:So maybe just to kind of.
Speaker 2:They're very, very much on the Mars and I know I can have compassion. They come in with these strong themes right of the Malefics. But, you know, are we standing up for the underdog or are we trying to, you know, beat the underdog down.
Speaker 1:Well, so you know. Ok, so those are two different. So the healing piece is what the healer, what you and your constellation work do with your clients and your patients. If we have someone here, we have Frederick with a Mars Pluto square with a configuration of the chart that suggests challenge, or Fred, who's got a Mars opposing Pluto theme here, and that big grand cross we described. Astrological aspects do describe challenge points versus flow. There are cycles that are considered flowing cycles and patterns that are considered challenging astrologically. It doesn't mean that it's definitely going to be acted out upon by the native, but this is where I oftentimes say what is habituated or familiar tends to reign.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, Exactly.
Speaker 1:So we were talking about themes of.
Speaker 2:well, that's where epigenetics, I think, comes in. You know, this marker gets turned on, this key gets turned on, and then the next generation is like oh, hold my beer. I'm going to ramp that up a little bit.
Speaker 1:So great-grandfather Frederick came from Germany, ran off to Alaska during the gold rush to really actively serve people what they wanted alcohol, prostitutes and used sort of clearly sort of the underbelly of society to make his power. To gain his power he also owned restaurants and bought real estate and property.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That was Frederick Srerick, the great great grandfather for junior, and then fred himself also was a land baron in manhattan who eventually was brought to court for a lot of illegal activity and, uh, denying people of color investigated for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I thought.
Speaker 1:I thought he was actually prosecuted is what I thought happened to Frederick and to Donald. Frederick, his father, Fred and Donald both were, I believe, prosecuted for their illegal and underhanded dealings with regard to minority housing in New York City.
Speaker 2:They were sued for sure. Yeah, I don't. I'm not 100% about the actual legal legal prosecution, like was it found guilty or did they settle? You know he might have settled um it when he was investigated for profiteering, for example, by the us senate committee. That ruined his reputation and then, if you go to donald um, so he was, uh, found guilty of falsifying business records in 2024. So that's where he was convicted of the felony. So again, we can see this, you know we can see the decline.
Speaker 1:Donald was again infamous in New York for not paying people for contracting builders.
Speaker 1:There was the issue of revifying Atlantic City, taking Atlantic City that had fallen to a terrible state over decades and decades. And Donald went to Atlantic City and said I will rebuild Atlantic City, I'll build plazas and I'll build casinos and we're going to inject Atlantic City with a huge amount of money. And in the end he built his Trump casinos and bust people in, bypassing any of the money going to the community whatsoever that he promised. So this kind of Pluto underhanded. So Pluto, on the one hand, describes power, people in power, people and generational power, generational wealth and generational change. These can be these people who've got powerful Pluto charts, this Trump family. They could be agents of change for good or agents of change for things that are, like Pluto, underhanded or not easily seen or not easily addressed themes, things of power and control from behind the scenes. And all of them have that powerful Pluto.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they do. That's a whole family theme.
Speaker 1:Strikes me too that somebody who who finds empowerment might not do that, it might not do the work that would liberate that power domination theme, that they're more likely to be habituated, family habituated.
Speaker 2:And so it's kind of interesting with Donald Jr to see what happens with him, because you know there's stars on the rise. What happens with him, because you know there's stars on the rise, but you know after, after you know president Trump, what will happen with the family. You know at that point, by all accounts, barron is not going to be the one taking up the mantle to be the killer. So it'll be interesting to see you know the legacy and what you know if anything shifts this.
Speaker 1:Well, if we look at Donald Trump Jr's chart here, and as we come to close fairly shortly here, with that, jupiter rising, jupiter, again, jove, joviality is how he rises. In fact, with Donald Trump Jr's chart, the only planet above the horizon is Jupiter. So what the outer world will know Donald Trump Jr for, ostensibly, is for a jovial attitude or a jovial affect or jovial interaction, even if Jr's chart has the moon's nodes with Pluto dead, square his sun. So there's again a theme of power and domination and control.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And or being controlled by, as you said, by maybe his father. It certainly seems that way. So where might this lineage go? That Pluto theme is still present in Junior's chart Right exactly.
Speaker 2:But what's really prominent is that jupiter yeah, and that's where you know I can skip a generation um and come back. You know, or come back can come back a different way you know you might to empower the underdog. Um, so I mean it, it's got the potential. I mean I I think that there's always, you know, there's always a potential to shift the pattern.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think, when things, when you usually shift a pattern, when you're in, when you hurt, you know, and we haven't gotten quite to that point with this family yet, I don't think- in leo, the theme of power, the theme of strength, the theme of militaristic domination although with junior that jupiter, it's a whole lot more fun to be playful and loving than it is to be constantly aggressively, uh, dominating, yeah and you know you have to also remember because of his, because of his role in this country.
Speaker 2:You know he is a product of the consciousness of where the country is.
Speaker 1:Well, certainly, when someone is Plutonian also, they tend to be drivers Throughout. History, as far as I know, when Pluto is angular, when Pluto is angular or near the angles, history, as far as I know, when Pluto is angular, when Pluto is angular or near the angles, it's very common, for in the charts of dictators it's one of those notable cycles and since we have a time of birth for Donald jr and for Donald senior, pluto with the angles continues to be a theme yeah, and we're.
Speaker 2:You know the US is in its Pluto return, first Pluto return. So you know it speaks to that type of a leader to reveal, you know what we, you know what we may want to change in this country or reveal, you know, it'd be interesting to see. You know where we go from here. But presiding, you know, at that time of the Pluto return. In a way it seems a little fitting, but at that time of the Pluto return in a way it seems a little fitting.
Speaker 1:So we've kind of come to the close time here, I think, and I guess I just want to say astrology always seems to have this quality. There is so much to look at, so much to review, and here the issue is with family constellation work or any other psychotherapeutic work, you know how to take this information that the chart suggests and where to go forward with it. So with that Mars Leo theme that three out of the four have in their chart, that's so powerful. Yet Donald Jr has that Jupiter jovial piece that's very strong. Here I wonder, would we as practitioners A encourage him to go?
Speaker 1:I guess I'm going to say go to the light but go toward the Jupiterian upliftment, since Jupiter and Jove talks about healers and doctors and physicians and and psychotherapists and people who uplift. Yeah, say, someone who's got a prominent jupiter is an an uplifter. You know, in vedic astrology they call jupiter guru. They don't call it a greco-roman, they call it guru. So here he, donald junior, has guru opposite his whole chart, here, his, his son. He could be either an uplifter or, you know, or not, but that would be a turning point. Maybe it's a turning point for him.
Speaker 2:A turning point. I mean, you know he's a Capricorn, so you know it's never too late to do something else and he may be very much under the influence of, you know, of his father at this point and I don't know that he's going to be able to continue that road and amplify that. But maybe, you know, maybe he can have a I mean because you know Jupiter above the horizon that could be the humanitarian, the very generous person you know it's got, so it's got a lot of positive qualities it could step into.
Speaker 1:Well, you know one thing about Donald's chart, with Regulus rising here, the heart of the lion, the heart of the monarch, the singular degree and star that talks about monarchy and which he's discussing monarchy in so many ways monarchy in which he's discussing monarchy in so many ways. Oftentimes, when someone is a leader or a monarch like that, ultimately they want to have things named after them buildings and movements and positive society. They want the society. It reminds me of dictator Mussolini. He was a Leo Mussolini. He was a dictator, but he wanted to be loved, as many Leos do want to. I think a lot of Capricorns also ultimately want to be loved. And here I think Donald Jr, you-esque monarchic idea about being the next Camelot yeah, I would agree with that. So I'm wondering. There's so much to look at here. There were some degrees that you brought up on this slide that I think we'll have to touch another time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But there are powerful degree areas in these charts as well, that they all share 22 degrees of different signs in 17.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the 22 degrees I find really fascinating because that was with the Pluto-Saturn conjunction right before in 2019, right before the whole world shut down, right. So Fred literally has Pluto at 22 degrees in Gemini, but then Donald has the vertex, which is the part of fate, and Capricorn ruled by Saturn, and that was the other planet that came together right before the pandemic. So I found that really kind of fascinating. And then so many of the men have the 17 degrees, which, in numerology, that's an eight right. So many of the men have the 17 degrees which, in numerology, that's an eight right.
Speaker 1:Eight is a lot about power, so power and money themes and a numerology. 22 is, what do they say? One of the master numbers.
Speaker 2:Oh true, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:Describe somebody who has power or influence in some grand way. It can go either way, though there's again the free will element that we can't know for sure.
Speaker 2:Exactly Again, the free will, element that we can't know for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, well. So here's a little feedback, a little info page rather, for you, for people to give you feedback and for people to consult with you and set up appointments with you. So, dear Lisa, people can reach you at futureechoorg yes, wwwfutureechoorg. Yep. Two E's wwwfutureechoorg.
Speaker 2:Yep Two E's.
Speaker 1:Wonderful and also, of course, your info is going to be on the page and page information on my websites and my podcast and so forth. So, thank you, dear Lisa. It's again always just so powerfully positive to have you and there's so much. I always feel like we open up lots of different doorways, pandora's box in a way, doorways of things to investigate. So perhaps we'll I count on, actually we'll have you again to dig a little deeper. Oh, thank you. Yeah, and I guess I always say you know Donald Trump's chart, it's just, it's just a powerhouse chart.
Speaker 2:There's no doubt.
Speaker 1:It's a powerhouse chart that Trump has.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Powerful in its implications and so a great learning tool for astrology and the whole family for that matter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for bringing it all to us, dear Lisa, you're magnificent.