The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships
Welcome to The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships Podcast, hosted by me, Alexander Mallon, along with my co host Sheila G.
As a Certified Astrologer and Intuitive who has practiced for over 47 years, I offer Consulting and Counseling Services to a broad clientele, from business leaders to entrepreneurs to teachers and more.
This podcast is about exploring how and why we are ‘astro-genetically’ bonded to our parents, and how our own birth chart is a map of this powerful 'soul-birthing' moment for our entire family. Astrological birth charts are a mirror of the Soul, highlighting hidden themes and revealing our Sacred Karmic Lessons.
Each episode will address our family relationships and family themes, as well as how we relate to our spouses, friends, co-workers and other relationships in our world.
We look forward to sharing and learning together with you all, and may the Stars guide your way on.
The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships
Astrologer/Counselor Lisa Hagenbuch ~ Family Constellations Meets Astrology
What if your birth chart is more than a personal snapshot—what if it’s a family event map?
Alexander joins with Astrologer and Therapist Lisa Hagenbach to connect the dots between Family Constellations Therapy and Astrology, showing how generational patterns, unspoken losses, and hidden loyalties shape everyday life.
Instead of reliving drama, we work with the “orders of love” that keep systems healthy: parents give, children take; everyone conceived belongs; hierarchy is honored; and endings are accepted. When these go out of order, the symptoms look familiar—stuck careers, repeating relationships, chronic stress, or estrangement.
Lisa walks us through group and one-on-one methods, including her object-based approach that uses a clock face to map relationships in space. As clients place “mother,” “father,” other family members and key events, subtle sensations and impulses reveal where love stopped and where it can move again.
We explore how Astrology mirrors this map: the Sun reflects the paternal line and vocation, the Moon the maternal bond and safety, Saturn the rules of belonging and limits, and Pluto the deep generational tides that mark collective change. When a Constellation restores order and a Chart offers timing, shifts show up both inside and out—calmer bodies, clearer decisions, and reconciliations that once felt impossible.
Along the way, we ground the work in simple, practical steps: acknowledge facts, include the excluded, allow movement, and let the living live. Feelings matter, but facts anchor healing; the body carries what the system cannot.
If you’ve tried talk therapy, mindset hacks, or sheer willpower and still feel looped by old patterns, this blend of systemic work and astrological insight offers a path that is both gentle and direct.
Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and tell us which family pattern you’re ready to rewrite. Your future doesn’t have to repeat your past.
To connect with Lisa Hagenbuch for Consultations and Sessions phone her at (847) 917-5473 or contact Lisa at:
Lisa@futureecho.org
www.futureecho.org
Find out about YOUR important chart placements !
~Alexander can be contacted for Consultation and Coaching sessions. You may contact him via his email: info@astrologyspirit.com or website: https://www.astrologyspirit.com/
You can view his offerings and book directly here: https://www.astrologyspirit.com/book-online
Thank you for listening!
Alexander & Sheila
Welcome to another episode of the Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships Podcast. And today, again, we have a very special guest, a wonderful astrologer and therapist and healer, uh Lisa Hagenbach. So great to have you again, Lisa. Thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you so much for having me back, Alexander. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00:It's nice to be here. Yeah, you're you're wonderful. So you we we actually had a couple of programs already together uh on your work uh as a therapist with Family Constellations therapy. You'll be telling us more about that. And of course, you're also a fellow practicing astrologer and joining these um two art forms or these two systems together. So, you know, hopefully today you can kind of uh uh educate us a little bit more, tell us a little bit more about yourself and what you do in a moment. So I'll do a screen share here so the folks can see uh the PowerPoint that we've created for today's program. Um so indeed, the work, Lisa, is called Family Constellations Therapy, right? And and uh hopefully you can clarify this this, of course, uh I had heard of from the constellations over the decades and over my own background um in therapy as an art therapist and uh some training in body synic gestalt therapy in my case. But constellations therapy is something I had heard of uh now for a good 20 years or so, I believe it's been out there, maybe quite a bit longer. You'll you'll tell us. Um, but Lisa, it it's it's not necessarily um, you know, connected, uh, although I thought initially as an astrologer, it's not necessarily connected to astronomy or constellations uh or anything of this of the nature, right?
SPEAKER_02:Right. And I was confused by that as well because I had heard about family constellation work from a dear friend of mine years before I actually investigated it. And so I just thought, well, I'll add it in. You know, it's got to be astrology related, I'll add it in at some point. And when I I'm fortunate to be um in an area where one of the, I would say one of the thought leaders and one of the best teachers of family constellation uh therapy work. Uh, his name is Barry Cross, K-R-O-S T. So I really want to reference him. He's um in the Chicago area, and he is he, I always say he eats and breathes and lives family constellation work. So I've learned so much from him. So he was having a seminar, and I was like, Oh, cool, I'll sign up for it. And I reached out and I said, I was a little confused because I was reading the description and I said, Does this have anything to do with astrology? And I sent him an email and he he called me back that night and we had like an hour conversation about it. And um, then I he's like, I do these workshops, you know, why don't you all day workshops in Chicago? Why don't you come and join one of them? And that was before COVID pre-COVID. So I um used to go every month and you could sign up half day, full day. I went for the full day, and it was eight hours. It seemed to go by in a half hour for me, and it's lucky you I found I find it, yeah, very fortunate um to be so close to I kind of got immersed in the work. Um, and because it's really energy work, you know, it's very different in a in a sense. Like he has he doesn't know astrology, and he was always like, I don't know how you'd put these two together. And then he'd be like, Did you ever figure it out? And I'm like, I think I finally did. So um, but I find it to be magic and I find it to be just as it fascinating as astrology and just another rabbit hole to go down. So I I I'm pairing them together, and I think, you know, I can talk about them its own as its own discipline. But I think um one of the beautiful things about family constellation work is the the um the founder of it, Bert Hallinger, he didn't ever really certify anyone. And you know, Barry takes it in his way, and and some people, you know, can take the concepts, constructs of it and apply it in different ways. So I'm I'm doing that with astrology.
SPEAKER_00:So well, and I I think uh in that regard, and in in a in a sort of a parallel way, perhaps at least, um we can talk about you can talk about one may discuss Family Constellation's work uh and its similarity to um uh other psychotherapeutic models. You know, Jung, Carl Jung himself was an astrologer, and in fact, I think it's we're gonna learn more and more that Jung's ideas were some of them taken directly from astrology, because astrology really is uh describing nature cycles, it's like the cycles of nature, the cycles of of human um existence and development, you know, our our journey from from you know cradle to grave, so to speak. You know, that's what a birth chart, those cycles of nature that we live through year by year. That's what astrology really truly is. And of course, when we talk about psychotherapeutic healing systems, we're discussing about the nature of the journey, you know, the nature of the journey of each person and where where we're going, where where have we come from, where are we going? And perhaps sometimes the question arises why.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. Yeah, archetypal for sure, you know, and yeah, so well.
SPEAKER_00:I I had initially thrown this slide in, by the way. Um, here we are recording on the uh the you know the the uh 19th of November, and every year on the 16th and 17th of November, we do have a lineid meteor shower, and the radiant of this meteor shower happens to be um just above Regulus, the bright star. Uh hold on, go back to that slide for a second. There we go. The bright star uh in Leo the lion, regulus, the heart of the lion. So that you could look for the constellation Leo rising in the early morning, usually like 11 p.m. midnight is when Leo starts to rise, and that's when the meteors will start to be seen. Um, so we did have a couple of clear nights, but I wasn't uh out there looking for this particular uh Leonid stream. But um, so I grabbed this slide just because it's topical. You have to roll, we are we're at the Leonid meteor storm, uh rather meteor uh stream that happens every year, and every blue moon is a storm.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I think too it's really relevant because I was thinking about it, you know, stars form clusters, right? They're they're created out of gas clouds and they form clusters, and then we see them as constellations as viewed from Earth, but each of that means each of the stars is in its particular order or place, right? And just like with family constellation, when everything is in its proper order or place, then the love and the balance flows well. So I think I think it really speaks to um if you think about, you know, the the star clusters, and then you think about family constellation and the experience that we have on Earth and the interplay between how that impacts each other. I think it's a I think it's a great slide. It's a great way to kind of kick it off.
SPEAKER_00:But I'm I'm glad that you like it. And yeah, I I think you're you're you're hitting something significantly important here. The again, you know, in terms of astrology, um, astrology as a mirror of of these cycles of life, and that that the that the that the nature of of literally stars, constellations, uh, planets moving, that's well, actually, you know, most of us don't realize, but that's something baked into our daily uh mindset. You know, we're we're looking at the the work week ahead. We're looking at the you know, the turn of Monday to Tuesday to Wednesday to Thursday, etc. Um, that's astrology. That's what astrology is, looking at those cycles from hour to hour and day to day. And uh there there is not just a metaphor here, there is a direct connection of the flow of of life. So please fill us in here on this slide that you've created.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so what I do with family constellations, and I'm I'm actually kind of using more from me personally, I'm expanding it out to be more family constellations, but also constellations. I think you can kind of constellate a number of things because you're a constellation is basically like taking a bird's eye view of a situation, and I think it pairs really well with astrology, and you can combine an individual birth chart, or you can look at, and we we did a show on transgenerational astrology more. So looking at the charts of family members in your in your system. So combining those two together with the you know, the astrology kind of shows you the pattern and gives you a lot, it's a it's a way for me to be able to tune into the energy because I'm not able to just read the energy in a room. I I kind of read it through the lens of the astrological chart or through tarot. You know, I I use some other tools mixing in with it. So, and then combining it with um the family constellation tenets of how do we go about putting everything back in order? How do we go about healing these gen intergenerational patterns so that you know the healing can, you know, the natives believe the healing goes both ways, seven generations, right? So we can make could put things, put the family system a little bit more in order with each session. So, and and hopefully then help to, you know, an individual with an unresolved life issue. Because that's what's this this therapy is really good for something that just is seems hard to clear with other methodologies. And that's because the origin of how this issue is going haywire in your life could have been 10 generations back. You know, it didn't start with you and it doesn't belong to you. And so it this is really good about getting into looking at it systemically and how do we how do we solve it? And and you know, I think it pairs well with astrology because everyone and everything in your is is in your birth chart, and your everyone and everything in your life is in your birth chart, right? So all your ancestors' energy is in your birth chart, all of the descendants that are yet to be born are in your birth chart. So I think they pair well together.
SPEAKER_00:Uh you're you're you're right on there. Um I think an important consideration, um, excuse me, um, is that um the average person would not know. I I I would think actually, even new students of astrology might not fully um grok, a great term from the 60s and 70s, might that's kind of it's kind of being re-resurgence lately, might not fully grok or get that uh when we look at a person's astrology birth chart, those planetary placements that talk about uh cycles, like the cycle of a person being born on a given day, a birthday, a season, you know. Um we look at that birth chart, the birth chart does describe for a Western astrologer, certainly, uh that archipel, that that symbol symbol is symbols astrologically, um, but also literally uh describes cycles that pertain to family dynamics. For instance, uh a great materially uh astronomically, astrologically coincident uh symbol that astrologers of the uh of the 20th century typically use is the placement of the planet Pluto. That we know Pluto has an orbit of 248 years, Pluto's phases from sign to sign because it has a like a comet in a very elliptical orbit, so it's faster through some signs and slower through others. But Pluto's going from right from sign to sign kind of talks about generations, uh different generations of uh social development. Pluto's cycles from sign to sign when it changes signs, let's say from Libra to Scorpio, I'm thinking about the 70s into the into the 80s, or Scorpio to Sage, the the 90s, uh, or lately uh Capricorn to Aquarius. These Pluto phases occur, these cycles of nature, these this coincidence of Pluto's orbit around the sun and our orbit with it happen in 15 years or 30-year intervals, and so they really do match sort of sub-generations and generational periods. So that's where I think the average person, Lisa, wouldn't understand that astrology isn't in some way only metaphorically symbology, symbolically describing a person, it's describing literally what phase uh of sort of social interaction we're born into. It kind of like from whence we came, you know. And beside that, too, our birth chart is a is a chart, uh, a transit chart, it's called in astrology, right? A chart of the moment when mom has us come out of her body. So it's really a significant, materially real event for her, one of the biggest events in her life. So I I think in this regard, you're saying the family constellations work as a therapeutic model describes the the constellation of the family system. Astrologers look at the if you were literally astrological, uh, you know, planetary constellations of things.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and kind of tagging into what you're saying from a generational point of view with the outer planets, and even now I'm getting more into the dwarf planets, which move even slower, right? So it the descendants can be bringing in a consciousness that is meant to shift an ancestral pattern that's no longer working or that's not up to date, or maybe they're helping to col to shift collective um thoughts about institutions and and all of that. I think it's I I like what you're saying in terms of there are groups of individuals that come in to kind of collectively shape things, and then individually that shapes things within families that are part of those, you know. So it's it's it's like the I just think of the the rushing nesting dolls again, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Ah love that.
SPEAKER_02:They all have an impact on each other.
SPEAKER_00:Everything's interwoven, you're suggesting uh that that the family constellation's therapeutic model suggests uh intergenerationally everything being in interwoven and passed down. That could those could be attitudes or they could be uh behaviors or conceptual ideas. You're saying it might not be the native themselves who um is the progenitor or originator of a particular issue or trauma or behavior. It might come from a family patterning. Even you're saying even genetically.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. Yeah, through epigenetics, we know that you know different because family constellation work looks a lot at the unresolved and emotional patterns and traumas and all of that, that can not change the DNA, but it can change the expression of the gene and and all of that. And so when you know these groups of individuals come in as our descendants and they have they mix their consciousness with what their collective mission is, I think it is it's an important, it's an interesting mix. Um that can what Western shift collective paradigms do.
SPEAKER_00:Right, what Western astrologers do. We're looking at the birth chart and whether we're cognizant of it or not. We're looking at these generational and cogenerational uh indices, a person's birth chart describing mom and dad and grandma, grandpa, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, they're all in the chart, so I think it pairs really well. So in terms of like what actually family constellation therapy is, so it was developed by Bert Hellinger, who was um born in Germany. He um he had a very interesting life, and he started out, he didn't want to join, you know, the army, and then later um was a prisoner of war, and he got into a number of therapeutic modalities, um, the just you know, just all I'm not saying that right, distalt the you know, theory. And he became um a Jesuit priest. Um he was a missionary and he worked for I think 16 years with the Zulu tribes. And it was in kind of the mix of all of that, but specifically with looking and immersing himself in the Zulu culture, that he came up with this, or not maybe came up with this, but he he saw that there were orders of love within a family system, and that when the the orders were, when everything was in its order and proper place, that the love and the balance flowed well in the family system. And so it was really the family constellations. Um, he he really kind of started working with and developed in the late 80s. Um and so what what this therapy is, I mean, I kind of call it a magical energetic portal of healing and transformation, but it's really looking at diving into and looking at and bringing awareness to dysfunctional patterns in family systems, where is the order not of love not flowing well? And um looking at the traumas and the patterns that span generations, and how is it being, how is it changing from generation to one generation to the other? And when you get to a point where you take on something that's not yours, it doesn't belong to you, it goes haywire, and that's another change in the um, I think in the generational consciousness of the individuals is we seek therapy now more, right, than we did in the past. So a descendant finally ends up in a family constellation circle and works on shifting, positively shifting this pattern. Um, and it's it's not only helping the descendants that are to come, but it kind of calms the family system down and puts it back into a natural rhythm. Because family systems are always looking for wholeness. And there's all the family systems have, you know, a lot of dysfunction over the generations. And so the beauty, I think, in in terms of family constellation therapy is when you attend a workshop, whether you are the the identified client in the session, um, or whether you are a representative of the energy of what's going on, or whether you're just uh uh um witnessing in the circle that you receive the layers of of healing, and your family system also is reaping the benefits of all of that just by being immersed in the work. It's again layers, you know, with this. Um, so what we're really looking to do in this work is just to facilitate positive movements in outdated life or ancestral systems, and just to so that individuals can feel more of a sense of resolution and peace, and that love and and life can flow better in their family system.
SPEAKER_00:So you you mentioned a couple of important things, and I know perhaps this this uh slide will will uh help clarify further, but it sounds like you're saying that um uh often the application of family counsel constellation work, or maybe as a as a norm, occurs in a group setting.
SPEAKER_02:So it can occur in a group setting, or there can be individual work. So when I first found it, um I I used to go to these all-day workshops. And so, and it kind of like again, the astrological chart that's a wheel, right? So the the room is set up by the facilitator and um in a circle. And so just to kind of describe what what this looks like, because I know there's it's it there is a little bit, it's best experienced. It's kind of sometimes hard to describe what happens. But um, the facilitator will say who wants to do a constellation. So somebody raises their hand and then they they go up and so they start talking about uh a life issue that they would like positive shifting in, you know, what's and in so Barry always kind of goes, I always say he goes to the five alarm fire. So he goes to the, he feels the energy and he's like, okay, I think this is what you know we need to work with in this moment. So I, you know, he just trusts that. And so then he will see how he wants to set up the constellation, meaning he might say, pick out, you know, three representatives, one for you, one for your mom, and one for your dad. And so you just the client will, the client will intuitively just look in the circle and pick out who seems to the it's it's a lot about just feeling your way through it. Like I feel like you're you should represent my mother, you should represent my father, you should represent me. And then the representatives um go into the circle and they're placed in a certain order. And then the beauty of this work too is that you don't really, it's not like um psychodrama where you're you're saying, you know, you're you're acting out a family drama and then you're getting into the trauma of it again. You just kind of you will ask the representatives. It's it's set up um phenomenologically. So it's there's uh what's called like the knowing field or the quantum field that everybody can, we're all interconnected and we can all tune into. So the magical thing is when you step in, you know, you're feeling a certain way, you step into the circle, and the room is set up in a way that the knowing field is is there, and you just start feeling different. You're like, I'm all of a sudden I'm really angry, and I want to move over there as and I'm the mother, and you know, and so you just kind of follow the movements, you follow what you're feeling, and the facilitator will ask, you know, questions and kind of seize the situation, and then will there are healing statements that are um said to kind of allow the energy to reassimilate, and then things can calm down, movements can be made, and it's kind of you know, we call on some ancestral support um by calling in representatives for you know ancestors or concepts, or you know, sometimes death is brought in, you know, people need to go to the to death and and lay the the situation down. So they're all kind of unique in a way. Um it's just it's done on a level of energy. It's just really it's it's really fascinating to watch. There's a show, I think I referenced it before, Another Self. It's a good, it's the first drama. It's from Turkey and it's subtitled and dubbed in. And it's it gives people an idea of how it can play out in people's lives. So it's a good reference point.
SPEAKER_00:Um so we'll you'll you'll have to uh send me some data on that so I can put that in the show notes. Uh sure.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's on Netflix. I think it's still on. Yeah. So I think there's two two or three seasons.
SPEAKER_00:So you know, so far it it sounds a little bit similar um to uh that body sentier gestalt uh work, or uh the you know, the uh you made reference, um, you know, therapies that are body-oriented, that are physical, that are uh abreacting, where you're you're kind of acting it out, uh where there's psychodrama. It sounds similar, but there sounds like you're you're saying that there's something different about it. And I'm wondering, um since you're calling on sort of ancestral connection, you're looking for uh sort of maybe symbols in the person's life, um, different individuals in the person's mindset. So maybe you could you can clarify for me a little bit um how how this differs from psychodrama. Uh, what what exactly yeah, how how do I make a sense of that?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so in family constellation work, it's really more important to look at the facts of the situation instead of the perceptions or stories of the individual. Whereas I think in in psychodrama, you're kind of taking a situation and you're trying to work through the trauma of it by kind of playing it out. Um and with this, there's because part of what keeps the pattern in place, they call it spinning, is if you're just kind of in the energy of it and your perception of it and you're spinning. You know, we've all kind of spun out on things, right? Where we just can't, we loop it around in our head and we just can't, we can't kind of we're too in our too in our emotions in a way to kind of heal it, or it just kind of we just we rev it up instead of this this work wants to calm it down. So there's a lot about looking at the facts of the situation, acknowledging the facts, accepting the facts, and putting some healing statements to put it in order and then withdrawing from it so that the past can we can lay it down and we can withdraw from the past so it doesn't have that energetic hold on us.
SPEAKER_00:So there's a bit of the there's a bit of the interweaving with uh standard psychotherapy models of uh uh of the last hundred years, which were uh you know cognitive therapies, verbal, emotional, going to the therapist, sitting on the couch or sitting in the chair or having a cognitive discussion, a verbal discussion with your therapist, and and therapeutically going through our life story or ideas. But here you're defining something important from psychodrama or from body center gestalt therapy, uh, some of the training I uh have had, where indeed you're right, those trainings, psychodrama, the acting out, you know, see the proverbial, you know, uh taking the bat and hitting the pillow, kind of an abreaction, or acting out of uh of emotions, trauma. Um that's also true of body cynic gestalt, I think. Uh it's more involving uh the id, like the the plexal id, you know, the the emotional body, the the psychic body, the feeling. I think you said the feeling, the the the feeling emotional attachment that we have to an event or people or situations, um, how we see it, what we think of it, how we've digested it or taken it in. You're saying from the constellation therapy is focusing on the facts of the matter, which is interesting because that's a great parallel to astrology. You know, the the facts of the matter. The chart describes the facts of the um the astronomical facts, the facts of cycles, the facts of seasons, the facts of this, this the environment around a child being born. Really, what our birth chart does describe is where where mom and dad are in their personal growth and development, having this infant come into their lives at this particular time, our birth time, our birthday. So our birth chart describes this major event of having an infant enter a family system and what's happening around that family system that that infant is experiencing that is foundational for our sense of being in the world. And that's what a birth chart is, and that's what it sounds like you're saying family family uh constellation work does that is different. It gives this uh sort of reality framework to what's happening around it and what's happening around the person. And so, you know, not to not to direct you here, but I do wonder about this on this a few slides you've you've brought for us today. So I'm wondering, um yeah, you know, help help clarify here. Sorry, I'll I'll I'll have you share.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, yeah. So in this um, so Britt Hallinger kind of came up with there were more like three or four uh orders of love, and this has been kind of fleshed out a little bit more by my teacher, Barry. So I I have his permission to use the slide. So um the first kind of uh order of love is that the parents give and the children take. So the flow of love in a family system is always meant to go from the ancestor to the descendant, and that the parents will give more than the children. So in when we say parents give, meaning because they're the ancestor of their child, essentially, they're meant to to give, and all the child really needs to do in order to be kind of successful in life is just to take take the life that is offered to them from their biological parents. And sometimes the orders can get flipped on their head, for example, where you might have a child that say you have a single mom and she's relying on her son to, you know, give her the love that she's not giving to herself. So then she's asking the child to give that love that lips it on its head and says, okay, this is part of this is an example of how this order um so how it could be disrupted or out of order in that sense. Um, and love succeeds best when children are children and parents are parents. So whenever we are asking our children to kind of help us out with adult issues, that's another thing that will disrupt the order of love. Um so that and um so then I'm gonna go to okay, so the other another major concept in family constellation is uh the belonging, that all family members have an equal right to belong. They have a right to belong and they have an equal right to belong. And the maintaining completeness is not excluding a family member. And the exclusions can come, you know, from a number of different sources, but whenever, so for example, there, and this is where family secrets can kind of come into place, into play, and that um if there is uh a miscarriage that's not spoken about or an abortion that's not spoken about, that is that becomes a secret. And then it puts the children out of birth order um because maybe mom just was too grief stricken, too grief-stricken to talk about a miscarriage, or didn't want anyone to know that she had had an abortion. But it kind of excludes family members, so that that can be a big exclusion. Um, or if you have like a real black sheep of the family, somebody goes to jail and we're like, we don't want to, you know, we don't want to talk about Uncle Joe anymore because you know, he went to prison, you know, we're kind of excluding, and that that all just disrupts this order of love that everyone, no matter what, just by the fact that they um that they were either born or they were conceived, they have a right to belong. So that's a really important um order in love. And then also protecting the hierarchy within the family system, which can go um, you know, in the family system, it kind of goes, you know, the the father, the mother, and then the children in their birth order. Um and then there are other people that can come into our family system, either through um, you know, through marriage. Um, so we the maintaining precedence between different systems is that if we if you have a a family system where you have more than one marriage, you kind of have to honor the the um so if somebody remarries into, you know, if somebody gets married a second time, we have to honor this the first spouse that came. And and there's a sense of if you honor it, it it again kind of lets the love flow um in the whole family system. Um and then also the accepting the limitations of time is knowing that and being okay with things ending, you know, and I think we have we can have a difficult time with things ending and not withdrawing our energy from something that has ended and um allowing it to withdraw so that we can we can move forward. Um movement is a really important component um in this work.
SPEAKER_00:So it's uh you know what what what sort of uh stands out for me in this slide, the the eight orders uh of love and what you've just shared, what stands out for me uh is is uh pretty much across the board, each of these eight orders that uh Helen Drake came up with uh talk about consciousness. So when parents are self-aware, when parents are self-conscious, uh conscious of self, conscious of interaction, conscious of their uh of which came first, chicken or egg, you know, which came first, the the parents or the child, you know, my mindful of their own development, their own work, mindful of the their own process. When when a parent is mindful of what process they are supposed to there they are internally, if you will, supposed to be mindful of at any given time. When so the question might be, where am I now? Um, what's happening for me at this time in my life? What phase of my own development do I think I am in right now? What phase of development is my spouse in right now? These this self-awareness theme um seems like it would be uh a way to, as you know, step six here, protecting the hierarchy of the family system. Seems like a way it would it would protect that natural order.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I totally agree with that. And that's where it's interesting too, because it's a personal belief is that you know, these generations of kids come in with different consciousness and they they're always kind of mirroring back to us where we've been unconscious and where we could do a better job. So, in a way, they're giving us a great gift. If we could just take the gift and say, Oh, I gotta work on that, and that way, then I can be in that flow of giving more to you, instead of yeah. So I I agree with the more we're all conscious, the better this uh works.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So when you know step one here, or um number number numerical one here, the eight orders of love, parent the concept of parents give, children take. Um I don't think that that that uh Bert's work or this or the or rather family constellation work suggests that parents are the givers and children are the takers. It's suggesting uh awareness of what parents are being and giving.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Where it's right, being in the in a kind that's part of my whole journey too, has been really interested and focused on the conscious parenting or conscious caregiving and keeping like your side of the street really clean, um, and then that energy flowing down to your children. And um so I I totally agree with the the I I think the consciousness is really significant here.
SPEAKER_00:Um And you just said something else, I think, key. You said the energetics. So the the conscious awareness and the energetics, that they are um they are they're married together, those two things cannot be separated.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. Yeah, no, absolutely um because and that's the interesting part about family constellation work is that when there is a disruption in the order of love, or when a descendant becomes entangled with the issue and they're trying to make the family system whole again, that's where a lot of that can be unconscious. And so you can fall into these patterns that don't even feel comfortable or familiar to you because maybe you've taken on something from five generations before to clear, and it doesn't, you know, even your your it's you get in we call them in entanglements in this work. And so getting entangled with the unconsciousness from past generations can derail your consciousness in the moment.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I work on that with with clients and in through charts, the question arises you know, different uh constellations in the chart, quite literally, uh astrologically, different placements. I mean, this is a not that I'm uh in any way telling you, Lisa, as a fellow astrologer, it's more kibbutzing and a sharing intended moment here. That when we look at a charts, they describe you know where perhaps what that name that that person's natural state is. And then there are elements of the chart that describe what that person might have absorbed or taken on that is not theirs. Might be moms, might be dads, aunt, uncle, someone in the family system.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because they're you know, we all want to belong, you know, in general, and we all want to belong to our family system. And if our family system is, you know, has a bias in a certain way, we may feel we might have this conflict, internal subconscious conflict of like, you know, I don't want to have a bias, but if I don't have a bias, will my family love me? You know, will I be able to survive? You know, it could still, it's very kind of instinctual. Um, and invariably I find in families there's somebody that I call a change agent that's just kind of thinking a little bit different because they're wanting to kind of put the family system a little bit more in order. And they're the ones that typically will find their way into a family constellation session.
SPEAKER_00:Um there might have there might, however, be a change agent in a family who is a disruptor, and perhaps you know some of the other slides you've you've uh presented here might help guide us a little bit, I think, in this regard. So let me bring the the next slide up as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it can go it can go both ways for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So here your slide discusses disruptions to the orders and flow of love. Maybe you could expound on these uh these themes a bit.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so one of the ways that these orders of and flow of love can get um can break down are through exclusions and through whether that's conscious or whether that's you know subconscious. So I some of the examples of exclusions, like I mentioned before, would be if there were um miscarriages or abortions. And the interesting thing is sometimes you just have to kind of put in a representative for a miscarriage because, you know, you may not have any record of it, you know. So the genealogical records might show it, um, but you might not have ever heard the family story of, you know, yeah, you know, I actually found out that before I was born, my mom had two miscarriages and nobody spoke about them. You know, people don't typically talk about miscarriages or abortions. And so it didn't affect my birth order because I was the, you know, the youngest, but that can affect a birth order if you think that you're, you know, supposed to take on the energy of the firstborn, but there were two children that were conceived and didn't make it in, you know. So um the exclusions, exclusions can happen, like in my case, for my entanglement with family concept in my family system, it came from an exclusion of um a child who died early and the parents were too grief-stricken to talk about, and the child wasn't honored. And so that can be an exclusion. Um, like I said, if there is if there is a black sheep, you know, somebody is a drug addict and they they left home and you know they're excluded, or they go to, you know, if somebody's in jail, these exclusions can happen in a number of different ways, and it throws the the order um out of whack, and then also the sense of not everybody belongs anymore. So that's a huge one.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I I think that sounds very familiar. This is why. When when uh when you and I first met and and worked together, uh and you educated me more about family constellations work that you do professionally, um, it resonates with me so thoroughly uh regarding astrological work I've done for for you know very, very many years. So when you're talking about these uh exclusions, these events or situations, um, the birth chart does have planetary indicators, it does have indicators in it, symbolized by planets, for instance, particularly, uh of these different uh disconnections, these areas that might be problematical or disconnected or unconsciously disconnected. And it we're in the chart will refer to to what that is. There are literally indicators in a chart of the the nature of these exclusions that Hellinger talks about in Family Constellations work, these uh exclusions, these these areas that are maybe unconscious or go unconscious or are are weeded out or not purposely maybe not talked about, yet have great uh impact emotionally, psychologically, emotionally, on um the family system. And that's astrologically, there are things that directly show that. We'll we'll we'll talk about that when we bring up some charts perhaps uh in a moment.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, either whether it's in that yeah, the pattern or even a translator, you know, something that happens um along the way. So I agree with that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that you know, a birth chart describes particularly the natural flow and then areas that are impinging upon that natural flow for the native and those exclusions, those entanglements. So maybe you could clarify a little bit about entanglement with hidden loyalties, etc.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so entanglements are when a descendant comes in to make this family system whole, and they entangle with the energy surrounding um an ancestor um who didn't kind of clear that issue in their life before they passed. And so these entanglements can come in in a number of different ways. It could be by you're trying to bring someone back into the system so you entangle with it. Um, you could entangle with it because this goes along a little bit with hidden loyalties that you want to belong in the family system. So an example of a hidden loyalty could be that you might be a descendant that would be maybe the first person to ever go to a four-year university. Nobody in your family system has ever done that before because they just didn't have, you know, the resources to do that. And you might, but the descendant might feel like, well, if I do that, is that going to put myself, you know, am I going to be the different one then? And they might kind of self-sabotage and say, you know, I'm I'm not gonna, I'm gonna keep myself small in order to belong in the family system. Um so that can be, so you can have these hidden loyalty, hidden loyalties and entanglements are they kind of go hand in hand sometimes. Uh you can be entangled in an issue and you can have a hidden loyalty to an ancestor. Um, you know, maybe you never, you know, maybe uh the family at one point was very wealthy, but then they lost their money, right? And so um, in order, you know, you've got people coming in trying to make the money back, but then you wouldn't belong in the family anymore. So then you might make the money and in and lose it just as fast because you want to keep that pattern unconsciously going. Um, so that can be another way that this is disrupted. Um, it can be through loss. Um it can be, you know, there's an early death of a child, um, is a great example of this, or um just I guess a loss where the grief is too much, and you you don't kind of honor the the the death um or the ending of that individual. So you don't, you know, they're kind of excluded from that in that perspective from just the grief being too much, for example. Um or it could be, you know, loss, like war is a big loss, right? The you know, losing soldiers in war and um not honoring them and their place in the family. Uh and then I think also enmeshments where you know you might have the um mother and daughter are are too enmeshed to be in a healthy relationship as separate individuals because they're just the daughter is is playing out, you know, the traumas that her mother has um incurred. So there's a number of different ways that this can play out in somebody's life. And a really good um example of uh a reason, I guess, to go to a family constellation is when you know you've kind of tried to heal this in different ways, and you just it doesn't seem to heal, you know. You've tried to go to talk therapy, you've tried to, you know, do EMDR, you know, these disruptions in the family system sometimes they date so far back that the only way that you can address it is from a systemic where you're looking at the whole family system and going in and and in that's where getting the background is really helpful, but not getting into the story of it.
SPEAKER_00:So, you know, it has me uh thinking. Well, let me just back up and say this. When when I do the work I do with clients, particularly um the coach and counseling work that I offer, and and that and that really the umbrella of of the majority of uh sessions will will always have some of this as an underpinning for me. That what where we are and what's happening and what we've created or how it's what's happened at us or to us, um, there almost always is an interweaving to what we've helped co-create. I mean, it's almost always typically, particularly in the US, you know, this this nation that has a you know, Western man has a great deal of freedoms by and large to create. So so very typically our creation, our viewpoint, our understanding, the lens that we use to view the world um is not necessarily our own lens. So those those themes of loss or enmeshment, entanglement, uh uh loyalty, hidden hidden loyalties, um, these are sort of stereotypically human journey. You know, what's the old joke that you know I've I've heard that there's a normal family somewhere in Oshkosh or something like this? It's one of those jokes that somewhere there's a normal family out there. And I literally have taken have said for decades with clients I work with, I I think between you and I, Lisa, and I could change my mind, but it's been a lot of years. Um, maybe I'm enmeshed in this way, but I but I I do. I think that six percent of my clients have a wonderful childhood and a wonderful adolescence and a wonderful adulthood. And then the rest of us, the other 94% of us, um, have these some measure of entanglement or loss or betrayal or you know, hidden themes or enmeshment very commonly. It's more the question, you know, where where do we have and where do we have these different components that get in the way, get that that create disorder or disorder of the flow. And so it sounds like yeah, please.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because I, you know, the you keep there, it's and it runs the spectrum, right? So you can have um it's interesting because you can have you know a family seemingly like with so much dysfunction, but they might be very tight-knit, right? Because that's just the way their family system goes. But there would be individuals in the system that um it doesn't work for, or you know, I had a very I came from June War Cleaver, you know, I I had this idyllic, you know, loving childhood, but I was enmeshed with my uncle and I felt very disconnected from my family until I was able to bring him back in, and now I'm getting closer with them. So even when I guess we never it's it's like Facebook, right? Like everybody's life looks great on Facebook, right? But what really is going on, there's there's there are these all of these disruptions to the orders and flow of love are in every family system.
SPEAKER_00:Every family system, and it's yeah. Well, and so I was gonna say, you know, you you I know I know you have a couple of charts here to to show us for those who who are fellow students of astrology, uh, to to get to. So let's just make sure we have uh we we have some time for that. Um certainly I want to say uh at this point, folks, I think it's clear to our audience and to to you and I, Lisa, that you know, we're talking about some pretty powerful themes here. We're discussing the umbrella of family constellations therapy work, even the umbrella of of therapeutic healing work in general, and that you know, yeah, Alexander's idea here, my idea, you know, there's 90 94% of us need this work. 94% of us are working on these themes as a fundamental element of our humanity. Maybe there are a small percentage of us out there that really don't struggle through these themes, but most of us have some of these, or not a few of these, or many of these themes of entanglements and enmeshments and so forth, um, that are in a way cross cross-circuiting, uh disabling the harmony, harmonious flow of being. Um, but I think there's so much for us to discuss here that we're gonna have a bunch of programs to get into the detail this a little bit more.
SPEAKER_02:We're doing an overview today, but yeah, no, I agree because you know, you're gonna receive the healing, and you'll usually find out where you need to do more work is when you get chosen as a representative for something and you're like, oh, I must have a threat of that in my life as well.
SPEAKER_00:Although, you know, I want to, as an astrologer, I want to kick back and say that's what my chart is. You know, if I'm part of that 94, 94 percent of humans where we're gonna we're we're involved in this family con family constellation, uh, then my chart, my being is a is a representative in that family model. It can't not be. You you can't not be raised in any particular model, including being raised in an orphanage. That's your family modeling, you know, from from you know, sort of um uterus to to diaper begins the whole uh uh embodiment and in socialization for each of us.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So um here on the next slide, you had some other ideas to share, um, to kind of expand a little bit on this theme of you know healing these disruptions to to the orders of love. What can you share uh in in in kind of brief here, and so we can kind of get to some other juicy astrology slides too.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. So I think first it starts with awareness, and that's the beauty, I think, of the the chart brings a lot of awareness to the energy of the situation and the awareness of the family pattern. So it is important to have that overarching discussion, awareness, um, and acknowledging what what is, what happened, what is, accepting it. And then um it's but it's so significant. It I always say family, a family constellation session is like getting on a ride and at a an amusement park and you can't stop until the the ride comes to a complete stop, and meaning like everything has to kind of the movements have to occur so everything gets back in order so that we can, you know, we don't leave the energy in chaos, right? We we get it to some sort of resolution or peace, um, and that comes through movement. Um I think also individuation is really important in terms of adults individuating and so that they can be functioning members in their family system and get out of the enmeshments and get out of the entanglements, um, and so that they can be in relationship with each other and be in relationship.
SPEAKER_00:May I jump in on may I may I jump in on that point? Absolutely. This idea, this idea of individuation, um developmentally, um I think cross-culturally developmentally, this is what occurs from our our childhood and grade school years into our teen years. Those teen years begin that natural process, including hormones and the you know, all those things that are happening, the process of individuation, you know, where little Johnny or little Janie say, you know, I don't, you know, what you know, I don't like broccoli, but one form of simplistic individuation. But more more powerfully might be um, you know, I I don't feel in alignment with this religion that you folks are uh you know uh having me uh practice or observe. I'm not in alignment with your philosophy. I'm not in alignment, I'm I'm in a different alignment with your politics. You know, these are different typical things that occur for pretty much everybody as we had into our teen years. So when you talk about individuation, um it really again comes back, it sort of highlights those terms of awareness, acknowledging you know, being having awareness to acknowledge into the the individuation process itself is essential.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. And that's again where the parents can give by allowing the child to individuate into their own, you know, in into their own authentic, um, you know, in alignment with who they are, instead of you know needing to be a certain way to belong to the system. So um, because my teacher always says you can't be in relationship if you can't separate, you know, from something. So you have to be, and whether you take on some of the same, you know, beliefs and thoughts, that's great too, but just make sure they're yours and not because your family believes that. That can go haywire as well. Um, and ancestral support is, I think, crucial to this. Um, I've I really feel like the ancestors are always on the sidelines, like our greatest um resource because they're intimately familiar with these patterns and they are, you know, they might be in spirit, they might be, you know, in a parallel dimension, but they're you we can call on them as support. Um, and I think this work really to connects you more into their energy. Um uh even if it's just like honoring them with photos on your wall, and you know, their their their support doesn't die when they the physical body dies. Um but it is also oh good.
SPEAKER_00:No, you bring, well, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you you bring to mind this idea of ancestral support, uh you know, with with those who've come and gone. Uh, but I wonder what about those who are living? What what if there is not and what if there is the opposite of ancestral support? What if there is, I mean, there's a lot of you know, there are a lot of phases and stages here, um, again, uh by the way, astrologically uh indicated in charts and symbolized, uh, where you know we presume parents uh have a baby, get pregnant, uh come together, have a relationship, build family, and that they are either conscious or intending to, but oftentimes they they are not conscious and not intending to. And that brings up a whole uh a whole other realm of considerations with the regarding ancestral support, both you know, both in spirit as well as in you know terra firma process here.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not sure. Um well so I am saying the chart, the chart, a chart, astrological chart, will mirror what if if and if in in what order, in what phase are our mom and dad when we're born, in their own awareness of that process? Are they aware of the are they intentional? Are they in the process? Do they do they even necessarily have us enter their family system at a time that was convenient? You know, um I had a chat with a fellow astrologer uh years ago who's very well known nowadays, uh, in his own right. We were hiking, and I mentioned uh a Pluto Moon configuration in his chart, indicating that, you know, since he was a fellow astrologer, I kind of went right down that Pluto rabbit hole, you know. Uh Pluto Moon would talk about moon, mommy, moon, you know, birthing, moon the womb, and Pluto life-death. There's a theme, if it's a Pluto moon configuration in a person's chart, around life, death, rebirth, and and really metaphorical as well as literal. Like literal, it could be when we're born, if there's a moon Pluto on our chart, that you know, our aunt or our grandmother or grandpa, somebody's literally struggling with their their their aliveness or their health, or maybe they're a terminus of life. That's one possibility of a moon Pluto. But psycho-emotionally, Moon Pluto can also talk about mom, particularly herself, um, struggling with her own identity and her and her own you know pregnancy, you know, being pregnant. How many moms go through whatever phase they go through about being pregnant or pregnant at a given year or at a given time in their marriage, all these different phase of their marriage, all these themes are really powerful. And uh the the family constellations work, at least I'm I'm getting you know jazzed about it because uh it sounds so familiar to that work of reviewing, you know, that astral I think Western astrologers do. We get into astrology as an art form and as a student, and we say, you know, how does this chart symbolize me? You know, what does it say about me? How does it objectify? How does it help me objectify myself? How does it help me objectify myself in a family?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think we talked about that one in our show on transgenerational astrology because it is really significant to look at mom's in mom and dad's chart and and how mom and dad are expressed in the in the child's chart and what was going on at the time, like all of that becomes really significant and adds a lot of depth to what might be out of order in the family system or what isn't flowing well in that family system. So um Right Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, that's that's that's what we're that's what we're digging into. So you're saying that so here the slide describes um the chart itself and that it cor it's correlated to one's ancestral DNA.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, like I said, all of your ancestors and all of your descendants uh can be found in your birth chart. So it's you know, it's the it's the original symbol system, right? So each of the symbols, there's so much depth within each symbol in terms of the the characteristics, the archetypes, who they describe, um how everything is interconnected and who's you know, how each of the symbols are interacting with the other symbols. And then when you can when you have that sacred conversation with the client, say, you know, that's where the consciousness piece comes in, because I can look at a chart and but I don't know exactly how they're using it. You know, I've got to interact with their consciousness. So that's where I like to look at what's not working well in your life and how can that be in better order and flow. And so that's where I think pairing these two together is it works beautiful in that way.
SPEAKER_00:And of course, though, in in astrological Western astrological verses, let's say Vedic Hindu, um, in Western astrological um teachings, the chart does describe there are mechanisms in the chart aspects and things that describe how these different capacities and and uh qualities are are flowing or not flowing, you know, where there is flow and harmony, where there is dissonance, right? The chart itself describes that. Um now, again, most astrologers will look at our chart and say this is this is you, the native, and how you are in flow or not in flow. And all these years, again, this is why your family constellations work and your astrological work, I think, uh sounds so familiar to me and so uh uh so exciting to me. I always look at the birth chart and say, Oh, this chart is a roadmap describing what this in this incoming soul was experiencing. This roadmap describes the genetic background, it describes the lineage, and it describes what this soul stepped into in this family system. So, yes, it's your chart, my chart, you know, each person's chart listening to the program right now, but it really is an important event chart. It's it's a chart, a map of the sky, our birth chart, that describes these various cycles and where mom and dad are in relationship to their own cycle. You know, great sort of exercise I throw out there for my clients is um part of this self-review, this this awareness of self, this astrological chart being a roadmap, or maybe the family constellations, if I guess you you know were to um discuss it in group or write it down or make mental note as you're going through that work. Uh, you know, the the chart and the experience describes sort of uh the subjective where where are we in this journey? Uh in other words, an exercise might be how old was mom when I was born? How old was dad when I was born? Where were they in their marriage? Were they newlyweds? Were they, you know, were where did they have children children before me? How long were they together? Where were they in their process of maturity? Were they 20, 30, 40 when I was born? These are things that are, as you said, about family constellations, facts. These are facts that we can know, that we can then have sort of deductive, objective reasoning about our you know, fellow humans and what what humans go through developmentally. So I I kind of think that in a way it sounds like family constellations work brings in that DNA quality, not quite literally, uh, and that family social system. So I'm wondering if maybe you could clarify a bit what you do with this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So um, so what I so I don't facilitate groups. I don't know that I ever will or have the ability to facilitate groups. So I really like the individual one-on-one sessions. So um I use um a clock to represent um the clock kind of represents how time and space and how things are in relation to each other. And then um we use objects. I use a lot of like crystals, rock, stones. Um, you can use little people. Now, this is an example of everything being kind of brought back into order. So this is kind of like I oftentimes the the client will take a snapshot of it. So all of these objects can start out at different areas on the clock. And so it's important to know where they are and what they're looking at. And um then through a series of you know, healing statements, I do an ancestral meditation often where we call in the ancestral support to get things moving. And it goes back into the I know as a facilitator what kind of order I'm looking for. And oftentimes when it's in that, I'll say, does this feel like a good place to end the constellation? And they will say yes. And so um, so again, in instead of using people, I use objects um in the session. And it was interesting because I always have their astrological chart and handy, and it's interesting because I will ask, so I kind of think of it. Um, one of my uh asked for feedback from um someone and they said, you know, it's almost like you open up a portal of of healing. It's very co-creative. I I am very much believe that we are all aware individually of how to heal ourselves. So I will they I always have the it's very client-led. Like let's bring a representative for mom. Where does mom go on the clock? They're gonna have to feel their way through it and put her somewhere and tell me where she's looking, right? And so, um, but whatever the issue is, whether it's maybe it's estrangement and I want to get everything kind of in a in an order, once it gets to that point, um, it's always the clients moving the objects. And so um, you like you kind of open up this portal of healing, you get everything back in order, and um then you just kind of thank the representatives, let them go on their way. And it's almost like the the healing echoes through time and space, and then things show up. You feel the client feels better, and then things will shift in the outer world. So it's a very um unique, very interesting kind of, you know, I've never had, I've never, it's interesting because I think when you when you start out on this journey with this client, I always am like, you know, I'm a Capricorn, I'm always afraid, like, what if this doesn't go into order? Like what if this what if we can't get this back into order? And it it's never happened that it's not in a like a state where the client is relaxed and everything seems back in order. You almost have to, and so what often happens is I will get messages of the downloads of who to bring in and what to bring in for constellations and what to do. And so it's kind of the magic of the co-creation of the healing is I feel like I'm getting the support of their ancestors, my ancestors to do the work. Um, and it I just I have my own personal yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, please continue.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I was to say, I mean, I know how it's magically worked out in my life, and I've then I get stories back from people about what happens in their life, and it just nothing surprises me in this work. So because I think we're all I mean the theory is that you're getting it put in order, and in the quantum field, everything, you know, is interconnected, right? So the the outer experiences can connect into the healing that was created in this moment. It's almost like I was I think about it as like, you know, when you you go to the beach and you you create a you know a picture in the sand and then the wave comes and it washes that away, but the there's echoes of the imprints of that energy that still remain.
SPEAKER_00:That's a brilliant, lovely analogy and visual. I'm wondering, this sounds really wonderful, um, Lisa, what you do as a healing therapist. Do your do your clients or patients do they um do they create the mandala does they place the the gems or whatever they choose to the the objects themselves on this clock?
SPEAKER_02:They do. I just have a whole like I have I have some little people and I have you know a lot of rocks and stones, and you know, I'm always kind of picking up things from nature that I want to use in constellation work. And I I just have an array, or I say you can bring your own objects, little objects that you want to, or if I'm on Zoom, they have to pick out their own objects, right? So yeah, they they are the ones making the placements, and then I'll always say, you know, at any time if the object wants to move or wants to change where it's looking, then you know, please do so. And and particularly when, you know, there's some meditations that I use where we call in the ancestral support to take away the core reason for the issue, and then or I do pendulum um work to just kind of get the energy moving, and then they will be like, Well, this wants to move here, this wants to move here, and it it all kind of magically comes into order in the moment, and then we just say, Okay, we're gonna leave it. Um I oftentimes say, you know, you can take a picture of it if you want to meditate, but we want it's important to remove um the objects off of the constellation before they leave, thank the ancestors and send them on their way um for their support. And it's just really kind of a magical experience every time, but it really connects well. Um I oftentimes I was gonna say, oftentimes they will place the objects in um the exact same place where they might have their Pluto or their Saturn, you know, and you can say, okay, well, because you placed it there, I'm gonna tune into the archetype of that, because that's how you know you came to be in that system.
SPEAKER_00:Unsurprisingly, the the two Capricorns here, you're you're reading my mind because of course, uh as an astrologer, astronomer, I really should say an astro an astronomer, astrologer in my case, um, whichever comes first. They're both synonymous for me, but as a practicing astrologer, uh I know and we know, right, that the the clock is of course uh you know uh an astrological wheel. You know, so maybe uh I I would I I would like to to get you back for a part B regarding this show today, and particularly about this really wonderful healing mandala that you are uh employ with your clients, your patients, your clients. Um, because it's it's brilliant. It it is it is uh uh it is a chart. I mean, after all, I I think what I'm getting at here, and I would like to uh kick this around with you in another show. I think all of us um in the West have been inculcated into this clock. We we are aware of the clock, we see a clock. You know, it's it's interesting. The next generation upcoming might not have the same experience of the clock because when we were kids, we didn't have a phone, we had the clock up on the wall, and that clock told us like a sun, like a giant sundial, just like a sundial does, where the sun is in its progression throughout the day. Of course, that is exactly what a birth chart is, same thing. So I kind of think you know, talk about on a on a quantum level, you're you're you are intentionally and also in quanta, you know, commingling with your client's sort of inner knowing. You said the client, the patient knows about their own healing, or maybe we could say the soul knows about its own destiny and what it's here to work on. Most of us do have a sense of a different parts of our lives of our destiny in terms of what we might do or become. But I also think we have a in a family system perhaps a sense of self and destiny in that family system, but getting it right is a key factor.
SPEAKER_02:The reason maybe the reason yeah, the reason we came into that family system, you know.
SPEAKER_00:And you said earlier the facts, the facts of the matter are important. Yes, our feelings are are fundamental to us, our feelings are important to us, and but however, uh our feelings aren't necessarily the facts. And I'm not saying for us to just to distrust our feeling state. I am saying, however, I think it's important for us to um qualify or quantify uh as a as a light fading outdoors, our our healing state. I I think to really that's where the birth chart comes in as a roadmap of the soul. A lot of us astrologers in the West particularly call it a roadmap of the soul.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, I think feelings can become our perceptions, right? And so, um, and so I think one of the things I wanted to bring in, and we're we're gonna flesh this out more in, you know, in another show, but for example, if somebody's having um an issue with their work, you know, if something's not flowing well in their work, the that is the masculine um side of the family lineage. So you're always gonna want to then start with, okay, what is your relationship like with your father? And are there issues in your family or in your father's lineage, the paternal lineage? And then so then you're also gonna look at, okay, typically, well, I always say, like, who is the parent that was out in the world working being the important one? You know, that's typically dad. So that would be the sun, right? So let's look at the sun and in that placement. Um, if somebody's having a hard time with love in their life, you know, that's gonna what how what is your relationship with mom and the maternal line? So um these we talk about family constellations and working out, putting the orders back um in or putting love and and harmony and flow back in order, but they play out in real world situations. And so that's the piece where people might be like, you know, how can I connect this to what I want to work on? You know, working on issues related to work, or maybe uh a health condition that's chronic that you can't get a handle on, right? Or love or relationships or, you know, repeating patterns or estrangement in families, you know, there these orders of love that get out of out of order or in disorder, they really affect really practical um parts of our lives. And they're all kind of again linked to higher concepts. And that's where you know we're talking about the um philosophy, I think, of the work. Um, but we can really scale it down to you know, this plays out in real real life situations, and um so this is a metaphor bring that back in.
SPEAKER_00:Metaphor of astrology, as above, so below. You know, but also meaning, meaning more practically, that let's say if there is uh an enmeshment in a family, an entanglement, uh, if there is uh uh a sense of of um betrayal in some fabric of the family, um as children and as adults, but certainly as babies, infants, and as children, we really uh our body responds. You know, that that great book, The Body Keep The Body Keeps the Score, I think is this the book title that so many people have read recently. It's a wonderful book. You know, this idea that we we really we've we embody it. You know, when you're under stress, your cortisol levels go up, your adrenal system becomes more active, the fight or flight kicks in, and this affects the whole body mechanism. So what's happening psychoemotionally and environmentally are indeed correlated. Um, and so it sounds like again the family constellations uh modality is well, no man is an island.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. No, that's exactly right. Because in in in-person work, you know, it will um my teacher will be able to, he's a body, he reads in the body system, so he can read it in the body. Whereas with me, I I can say, where does this where do you feel in your body? And I can go to okay, that body part is ruled by this in astrology, you know, so you can read this energy in a lot of different ways.
SPEAKER_00:And and so so too in body-centric gestalt. Body-centric gestalt takes into account physiogamy, you know, physiogamy and form and delivery and and postural um body positioning, etc. And that you can't you can't separate anything. It's like the the sort of the I had like this kind of zen image in my mind of you know, the the the ocean and a drop of the of a drop of water in the ocean, you know, which which one is more indicative of the ocean, the drop of water or the ocean itself, and are they separate? Of course they're not separate. Right, yeah, this is this is ocean of the ocean of consciousness, the ocean of the individual consciousness. Are they separate? So big themes for us to tackle. So I I hope that you'll return again uh real soon for us to dig into part two. You know, we we do have you did present a number of uh slides here we have yet to get to for that part two. Um, and one of them was you know getting into the astrology of it, like really getting into it, your chart, charts in general.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I have a good example of um how this played out, you know, in my life. And I think it it it shows in the astrology of my chart and my ancestor who I was entangled with, and how it's how I'm sh deeper more deeply connected in my f family of origin.
SPEAKER_00:And yeah, so well, let's let's come back to this. It seems like a a good uh uh point to uh end this show. We'll come back to sort of part B, and hopefully uh our listeners, our audience will be waiting with bated breath as I am, actually, about this part B uh discussion of family constellations work in astrology and and charts, like really getting to the practical meat and potatoes of it and application.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think today was, you know, it's and I it's it's hard, it's it's such an uh interesting way to um tackle a life situation. And it can be so I think we did a good job of maybe giving a broad overview of it, but we can dive down more into specifics.
SPEAKER_00:So much more to learn. So how do people get a hold of you, dear Lisa? How do they contact you? We haven't screened the shot here a slide up on YouTube.
SPEAKER_02:So my company name is Future Echo, and I actually kind of the name is speaks to this healing because I think the the past can affect the present and future, and vice versa. So uh my company name is future echo. Um, so futureecho.org or Lisa at future echo.org and um and and um my number is 8479-5473.
SPEAKER_00:Just um reach out with the we'll have the info at the at the in the show notes for people to tap into and reach out to you for session work and for consultations work. And of course, always, please, folks, I do ask for you know folks who are interested to uh subscribe to the podcast. It keeps those uh computer algorithms happy and has my show being offered so people can actually find it. So subscriptions are real important for those algorithms to even list the show uh as an option for people to discover. So, again, Lisa, thank you so much. Um, it's wonderful to work with you. You there's so much to share. Uh you you're a font of a font of discovery and information here. Look forward to seeing you next time.
SPEAKER_02:You too. Thanks, Alexander. It's great to know that you've been working with this, you know, unbeknownst to you, calling it maybe something different, but you've been working with this for a long time.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, I think family constellations, I had heard the term, thought maybe it was astrology, it wasn't. Um but actually, kind of it is like the drop in the ocean, you know. All right, folks. Thank you, dear Lisa. Thank you, listeners and viewers. We'll see you again. Bye bye.