The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships

Astrology & Family Constellations Therapy: Foundations in Practice - episode 2

• Alexander Mallon

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Some shifts start with a simple placement: a stone on a clock, a Chart on a screen, a truth finally spoken out loud. 

Today Alexander and guest Lisa Hagenbuch explore how two distinct practices— Astrology and Family Constellations Therapy— can be interwoven to reveal unconscious connections, release old secrets and hidden family challenges, and bring missing pieces back into the circle of our lives so that our sense of Self and 'creative flow' are better expressed.

In this episode Alexander reframes Astrology as a living sky map that describes the seasons and cycles present at birth as a mirror of one's 'birth into family', not a static fate carved in stone. 

Lisa brings Family Constellation work down to earth: a circle, representative objects, healing statements, and mindful connections help the client feel a return to a natural inner-order. When the inner-map settles, the outer world naturally responds.

 Lisa shares an example from her client files, a striking case which lands the point: after repositioning “Mom” and naming a long-avoided secret, a client received a flood of truth from her mother within hours immediately following her session, proof of how acknowledgment and inner alignment of one's stories can then soften the quantum-field and literally reshape one's life experiences.

We also look at family structures, and especially the mother lineage, echoing Bert Hellinger’s insight that every family constellation, at some level, is about the movement of the mother/matriarchy. 

Through using her own birth chart as a working example, Lisa demonstrates  how family and partnership themes can signal a calling to one-to-one healing. The conversation turns poignant with the story of Clarence, Lisa’s uncle who died at age five and was never spoken of again. That exclusion—understandable in its pain—left a vacuum that reverberated through following generations. Bringing Clarence and the memory of him 'back into belonging' in the family collective mind ... demonstrates how systems heal: not by erasing the past, but by deeply honoring it.

If you’re curious about how to use your birth chart to spot systemic family themes, how to stage a simple constellation to test a new order, or how timing can open “windows of opportunity” for change, you’ll find practical steps and deep validation here. We don’t worship fate; we work with cycles. We don’t force catharsis; we restore connection.

Subscribe, share with someone who’s carrying a family story alone, and leave a review with the pattern you’re ready to release. 

To reach Lisa for appointments & information: 

Lisa@futureecho.org

www.futureecho.org


Find out about YOUR important chart placements !

~Alexander can be contacted for Consultation and Coaching sessions. You may contact him via his email: info@astrologyspirit.com or website: https://www.astrologyspirit.com/

You can view his offerings and book directly here: https://www.astrologyspirit.com/book-online

Thank you for listening!
Alexander & Sheila

SPEAKER_00:

Well, welcome again, folks, to another episode of the Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships podcast. And I'm Alexander Mallon, your host for today. And again, we have another wonderful program with another wonderful astrologer and uh family uh constellations therapist, Lisa Hagenbach. So Lisa, welcome. So nice to have you again.

SPEAKER_01:

Thanks, Alexander, for having me back.

SPEAKER_00:

Today's kind of um, Lisa, I think sort of part two of what might be what might be a three-part series. Um, it really is about family constellations work, uh, therapy practice and and astrology. So I've got a little uh PowerPoint here. I'm gonna try to launch so people can see what we're what we're talking about for those who are watching our our YouTube uh broadcast. So indeed, um Lisa, you are a specialist as astrologers go, and I and I kind of think um it seems that there's a kind of a budding new connection between uh family constellations work and an astrological practice. These these are actually something that you're bringing together. You're you're you're one of those few uh new practitioners of astrology and counseling work who are joining these these two systems together. So today maybe you could start for those who didn't see part A, it's out there. Um maybe you could kind of just clarify a little bit about yourself and and these these family constellations work, what this is, and how you're joining as uh as an astrologer as well. So you know, people ask people I mean, I asked too when you and I were first chatting about doing the programs. Uh I did come across family constellations work decades ago, and I initially as an astrologer, and in my case backyard astronomer too, wondered family constellations. I mean, is this astrology? Like the constellations like we have we're we're taping today, actually, uh in December 2025, December 10th here. So this this couple of days we've got um this Gemini Gemini meteor shower happening. The radiant where the meteors appear to come is from the constellation Gemini, which will be overhead, high overhead around midnight, one o'clock in the morning, these nights of mid-December. But filmic constellation therapy has nothing directly to do with constellations, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Correct. And so it is a little bit confusing from that standpoint. I always thought they were the same, you know, I thought it was a discipline within astrology. But it does pair really well to me from the standpoint of just is though just so with stars, they're in a cluster, right, to form what we can view as the Gemini twins, you know, from Earth. We kind of view that as the constellation in the sky.

SPEAKER_00:

And if we imagine to draw lines connecting them, we we come up with these morphomata, these animal forms or constellation, human forms, we can kind of join stars together in our minds, imagination.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, exactly. And those stars are in clusters, they're in a certain order in order to do that. And in family constellation work, you know, we're all born within a family system. And in order for the family system to have um a harmonious flow of order and love, then all of the individual family members need to be in their correct order, if you will. And of course, we're all born in systems that are always looking for wholeness and looking for completeness. Rarely do you find a family system where that is, you know, 100%. Probably not ever, but where we this work strives to put things back in order so that the love can flow, the relationships can be harmonious, and it helps the descendants coming in to be born within a more complete family system. And it also helps the ancestors because you know, I think time isn't really linear, right? Time is is all kind of perhaps happening all at once.

SPEAKER_00:

So the healing to some some Einsteinian sort of uh Stephen Hucking's Einsteinian, you know, quantum physics kind of ideas here that that Western astrology particularly might in fact connect with. I mean this this idea that um you know when I excuse me, when I hang out with the with astronomers, um they they have a misconstruction, I think. I think even astrologers do, that our charts make us something, or that astrologers think our charts predict something about us, rather than uh a person's birth chart is is literally just a sky map. It's an astronomical sky map that describes season and moon phase and you know cycles of nature. That's what I always say.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and to me, uh conscious awareness and conscious potential, you know, you can shift things, you can you can work with your chart over time.

SPEAKER_00:

So the astrological chart describes a potential well, it describes literally an astronomical arrangement of things, which is like saying, I mean, I always think as a as a backyard astronomer myself, uh for me astrology is simply a a uh uh a map of the literal sky when a person's born and all those cycles that we're going through seasonal cycles, lunar cycles, emotional cycles, family cycles. You know, really a person's birth chart occurs when mom is carrying someone in her womb and that baby enters a family system. And in this regard, as an astrologer, uh uh it it sounds like family constellations therapy work, uh, which initially had well has nothing to do. Family constellations as a as a as a uh a form of therapy has nothing to do with astrology whatsoever. Yet the uh constructs sound remarkably similar to how a chart's describing that family social system that you're stepping into, and that chart of a person uh describes that moment that that baby entered, exits exits mom's body and enters the family in a literal way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, exactly. Because you know, family constellation work, we set up literally a circle, right? And your birth chart is a circle, and contained within the circle of each, you have representatives that represent different family members or different concepts. And when you have a birth chart, essentially when you're when you're born, you can pick out what represents mother, what represents father, what represents you know, grandfather, and all of your ancestors are contained in your birth chart. They they are, and really all of the descendants that are gonna come in because you can actually I always say to people, everyone and everything in your life is contained in your birth chart. So in my sessions, I like them to be interactive and say, what do you want to know more about or what isn't working in your life? Because then I can go to that in your chart and describe the energy and see how the collective energies, the kind uh where the planets are in the at the moment, can offer you windows of opportunity to shift it. So I think that the chart is is set when you're born, but also you know, you've got the opportunity to consciously work with it and create and co-create with the universe what you want.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that brings up where we have we have your chart, of course, on the screen here that we're going to talk about today. And that idea that the astrology chart is set at our birth, yet, you know, commonplace in Western astrology as well as in Vedic Hindu astrology and Tibetan astrology as well, which is uh rooted in Vedic, these astral astrological techniques have a person's static birth chart, but then there are techniques against that birth chart. There are um cycles that uh occur within and around that birth chart, we could say. So, for instance, um, you know, I'm old enough, uh I guess ancient by by 20-year-old standards now, that uh we can talk about going back to the 1950s, 60s, I guess, and 70s. There was this Polaroid camera thing that was a the new rage, those decades, where you could take a picture and the camera would spit out the picture, you know, the photograph of that moment. Here we have a photograph of Lisa's birth moment where planets were in the sky visible and what was below the horizon. So this moment is captured. But it's only a a minute or two, or really technically astrologically four minutes. It's only with a four-minute window of a sky looking a certain way, and the sky is always changing. The earth is always turning, the things are always rising and setting. So inherent in a birth chart, uh astrologically, is this idea of growth and change. These cycles are are underway. It's a Polaroid snapshot of a moment, but but it's only capturing a moment of consciousness, this birth moment, and all that's around that birth moment. And then there are other cycles we look at that describe how that birth moment unfolds, how that per so this is astrological. Now it sounds like um this family constellations work uh is very similar. Uh that is that it's not uh again, family constellations therapies are not astrological, ironically, and yet the way you're laying it out, Lisa, sounds very, very similar. Um, you know, how an astrologer sees this chart, this snapshot of a chart as a moment, but only a moment, because inherent in that the charts are already changing, you're already growing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, there's movement in both modalities. And the movement is what's is so crucial in both of them, but you know, specifically with family constellations, because just like the birth chart, when you set up a constellation, perhaps you set up your mother, your father, yourself, and your sibling you're having an issue with. So you've got these four people, and the client or actually even the representative will place themselves where it feels right in this moment for what the situation is. And then through a series of healing statements and calling in some ancestral support, then the movements can occur, just like the planetary movements go through your chart and they alter, they shift the energy, if you will. And so it even though they are completely separate modalities, I think they pair really well together.

SPEAKER_00:

They pair phenomenally well. As you said, Lisa, it's commonplace in in astrology, whether it's Western uh astrology or whether it's you know Eastern Hindu astrology, these techniques, you know, these maps of the sky, describe these cycles of maturation, cycles of living, cycles of coming to you know, age 7, 14, and 20, astrological cycles. Right totally correlate to that. And as you said, our chart, commonly we see as astrologers, um, describes that moment that child enters out of mom's body into the family, and it describes the circumstance of the family the child's encountering. That's what the chart does. It describes it's a map of the sky that is when you're born, and it describes inherently uh everything about that system that you're born into, that you know, the the the larger system of the social world, the outer world, and the symbolic you know reaction. Like I always say to clients if a mom is pregnant and nine months huge and ready to give birth to a child, if it's during the middle of winter during a blizzard or an ice storm, that has meaning for mom and child and dad and the circumstance of that child's birth and everything that's happening around. And if the child's born into, like I always think of Bill Clinton and a Leo, born into a pool party, if you're born into a pool party experience in the middle of August, that's a different trip, too. The charts describing the circumstance and then the whole psychology, emotional, social around that circumstance. So when you're saying that family constellations work as a therapeutic modality, separate from astrology, of course, describes the family. You're talking, you may look at mother or father, you may look at siblings or uncles or aunts, the family constellations work brings in the family system.

SPEAKER_01:

It does. And you reminded me, so when when the child is born, the sun and the moon in the child's chart are going to be set up in a certain configuration. So in family constellation work, it's important to tune into the energy or the emotions, um, take the temperature of a situation. It's like you kind of fly, you know, a drone above it and to look at it. So in a child's chart, if they have the sun and the moon in a square to each other, then the child may experience the mother and father. Either they could have on the on the shadow side, they could have some conflict. They could see, you know, there could be some big fights periodically, but they could also really come, you know, do a lot together as a couple because you've got that square energy propels things into motion, right? So it's almost a way to when a client comes in for family constellation, I can look at their birth chart and already know something. I can already kind of intuit something and explore with them their relationship with their mother and father, and how the mother and father were with them. Based on the perception of mom and and the placements of the sun and you know, and the aspects and all of that. So it's a way for me to tune into family dynamics by looking at their birth chart before they even get here. Well, that is not that is you know exactly what it is, but just is this the energy of it? Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That well, that that is so foundational to Western astrology, uh, even more than um Vedic astrology, which is becoming more and more popular, Vedic Hindu astrology, even with the Western is becoming quite popular now. But this idea that the Western chart um is a um is a descriptor, it's a coincidence, it's literally a it's a map of the sky when you're born and those cycles of nature, and so it is coincident with your birth, those cycles of nature, those planetary phases, that full moon or new moon phase, whatever, or as you said, moon square sun phase. It is coincident with that birth. And the um let's say I I think it's a piece that that astrologers give short shrift to. When a baby is coming out of your body, I mean, that won't happen for me in this lifetime, but it has happened for you. When you're when you're carrying a child and then eventually birthing that human out of your body, it's one of the biggest events of a woman's life by far. And that baby enters into your life system in some way, your social, family, marital, personal life system. The chart describes that. That's the as you just said, that's the key thing about uh what may why why professional astrologers are so excited about astrology, because we know these planetary cycles describe that experience so beautifully well. It's a giant roadmap, if you will, of these complex relational themes. Um and the family constellations work. If a client comes to a therapist, the client will typically tell the therapist or the therapist will inquire about their parenting or their mother or their father or their well.

SPEAKER_01:

So when somebody comes in, I ask for, of course, their birth chart, and then any any family member they feel might relate be related to whatever the issue is. So there is going to be a presenting issue when they come in that they would like positive shifting. And so I will always ask the client, like, what what is it that you would like to see positive shifting in your life? And then they can say, Well, you know, I just can't get my career off the ground, for example. You know, I just I I'm having a hard time, you know, landing a job or I get a job, and then I two, you know, years later, you know, something happens and the job goes away. Right. So already from from all of so you know, as an astrologer, you end up listening. I call it astrologies, you know, like when people talk to me, I'm I'm seeing what their words, I'm putting that into the astrological symbols, right?

SPEAKER_00:

That's what's that that's one of my key key words too. I I also call it astrologies. We don't speak Spanish or French, we speak astrologies.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So right. When they say work, I'm automatically gonna go to Mars and Saturn. When they say, and also my work isn't going well, I'm gonna look at, okay, well, this the work is affiliated with the son, which is typically the father. So I'm gonna start in the father's lineage and kind of inquire is there anybody else in your family system that ever had this issue that you're inquiring about? So already when they start talking to me, it's I tune into it from the standpoint of hearing the words in what the archetype is of the planetary or astrological symbol. And then I can go right to their chart and go right to that placement and how it's been following the energy around their chart. It's our it's the way that I can tune into the energy for a family constellation, or I call them now really constellation sessions because I've constelled a number of things, including somebody's website that it was she was having a really hard time with a website. I'm like, well, let's constellate it, you know, it doesn't have to just be a person. So it's just basically you want to get you want to fly a drone above the situation and get the energetic lay of the land. And then I take that and I tune into it through the birth chart.

SPEAKER_00:

Would that technique that you're laying out, that that idea of you know proverbial drone, getting getting the family constellation, the lay of the land, that would be what a family constellations trained therapist would do as part of that system, that that uh that construct of family constellations work, to gain the data or the information about what the patient or client wants to discuss or needs to work on, and the lineage and family connectors that they have that contribute or as you say, flying over that give us a perspective about that that journey for the person. And then you have the astrological chart, which again is a literal, uh, a literal astronomical, astrological map of that person. Uh you know, happening, right? That that's yeah, that's what this what this map is, right?

SPEAKER_01:

That yeah, you can literally to me, and I you know, I I didn't do it for this chart just to keep it clean, but I have to draw all the energy lines between the planets. That's how I read the energy, and then I just start following that thread, and it just the story starts to unfold about how we could set up the constellation for them. And then when, and I always have the client place the objects, and so then I can I from the training I know what's out of order, and then and then I do a number and I know how I want the order to look. So you we work with the energy until the client can make the movements and put everything back in order. Um I was thinking that.

SPEAKER_00:

Go ahead. Whoops, sorry. You have a couple of slides here about some of the basics of Family Constellation's work. Yeah. Uh and also uh a slide here, a visual cue that maybe describes a bit of what you're literally discussing in your session work. Can you clarify these?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so sure. So yeah, so I'm also I've just had some training in transgenerational astrology, which is really diving into the details of all these family member charts. So that's really helpful when you can get that information from the client. It just gives you extra information. But I'm combining, you know, family constellation work with astrology. And the goal is to bring positive movement and peace and resolution in the moment to a life situation. It's like you kind of open up a magic portal of healing, you get everything back in order within the circle of the family constellation, because I use a clock to represent the circle. And so this is an ex is a picture of everything being in order, and all of those objects represent different people or concepts. And so when things are back in order, things can magically shift in your outer experiences. And that's where I thought maybe a couple of I think today I'd like to bring in some stories because this is all kind of theoretical, right? But how does it apply in your practical life? So I don't know if you want me to go over a little bit more of the basics and then I can get into some.

SPEAKER_00:

So don't let me don't let me lead her guide too much. I'm just aware uh that we have a couple of things to show that might be visual aid. So you let me know, you know, when you want to go to different charts and things, please.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, maybe we'll stick with this one for a minute. And uh, you know, I kind of I'm you know, as we're as astrologers or for me for sure, I was a lot more left brain oriented in terms of, you know, astrology is a system. And when somebody shows up, I can talk about the system with them and the dates and all of that. So I wasn't really wasn't really getting into the energy of it as much. So I was like, I don't know if I can even do this work, right? I kind of just uh went to a lot of workshops, I did some, you know, teacher trainings, and uh I I I said, you know, I gotta see if I can do this. So I had a friend of mine, and I said, you know, could I just try this out on you? And she's like, Yeah. So she comes over and yeah, we pick out these objects. The issue with her was that she didn't feel she didn't have a deep connection with her mother, and she felt like her mother was always just very surfacey with her, right? And so we just I set up, I said, okay, let's set up you and your mother. And I brought in, you know, some more, I won't get into all the details of it, but we and initially when she put um, when I said put your mother on the clock, the mother, she put her in the corner of my office. I'm like, oh, okay, this is where mom is, way over here, right? And we threw calling it some ancestral support and and healing statements, and that's a whole nother story, but we I got it to the point where I'm like, because there was a lot with family secrets, which is one of the biggest detriments to having a deep connection and flow of order and love in a family system. So we got everything kind of like this picture says, we got it in an order that I was looking for. And I said, well, you know, I can't guarantee anything, but hopefully something, you know, positive. The thought is, and this is into the quantum aspect of it, right? So we've got everything back in order in this moment on this sheet of paper, and then we take the representatives off and we just kind of release it to the true trust and surrender to the universe and say, we put it back in order now. How can this shift in the outer circumstances? So I said, you know, just let me know if anything's changes with your mom. And I swear to God, and I feel like this was had to be confirmation initially, like past confirmation for me. She called me on her way home and she said, You're not gonna believe this. But I I left your house, I went to my mom's house, and she started telling me things I never knew about my family. So she started revealing the secrets within hours of us doing this. And I was like, Whoa, this word, you know, it's not always that fast, you can't guarantee it anything. But she I I she's an energy healer too, and I I think she just kind of had an open mind and open heart, and things started shifting, and she started having that deeper connection with her mom that she wanted.

SPEAKER_00:

So that's why you mentioned the part before.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I heard you say the term quantum. Like the idea of the this the the wheel, uh, the clock, as you say, that you place crystals or objects. Um, I think you had explained last show that when you work with that wheel, a physical wheel, when a patient is with your clients with you, that you'll use crystals or different objects to symbolize maybe a father or a person. Yeah. And you place them.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'll say, yeah, and I use I have little Playmobil people too, but I I I'm a big nature person. I like crystals and stones and rocks, and so I I use that a lot in my work. And so um a little trickier with them because I'll say, okay, where do they fit in this clock and what way are their eyes looking? So this rock over here, you have to imagine it as eyes. What way are the eyes looking? And you need to tell me if the eyes change where they're looking, because that all becomes really significant. Like sometimes the eyes are facing outward, they're not even looking at the situation. And so sometimes it's just the positive movement of getting the the eyes to switch so that it can look at a situation and that can shift things. So it's very um it's best experienced, and especially if you if you have a constellation for yourself or you attend workshops, because we all have these issues in our family system, and they didn't start with us, they predate us, and so somebody's issue with their, you know, great uncle could be a situation where like I have that in my family's situation too, my family system too. And when they have positive shifting and you witness it or you represent part of it, then that can facilitate positive change in your life because we're all we're all one, we're all quantumly connected.

SPEAKER_00:

So so in this lady's I know there's a lot in there, but yeah. Oh, it's great. So in this lady's this client's instance, when you had done this family constellations work with the clock and the objects and her conceiving of you know what who these how these objects are representing in her psyche, really, these different persons in her life, her mom or her dad, whatever. You said just after that session, out of the blue, her mom calls and starts revealing these family secrets that had been uh unknown to your client. And I'm gonna interpret that.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, unbeknownst Yeah, I didn't know that she was on her way to see her mom after seeing me. I didn't even know that. She's like, I mean, my mom lives close to you. I I went I was on my way to see her. So I came to your office and we did this session. So, because when I I don't I never promise what is gonna happen because, well, first of all, I think if you try to put that in a box, it it actually can can even limit the possibilities of what can happen, right? So you just have to come in with an open heart and open mind. And that's where uh you the training in it shows you I know what order I'm looking for. Like when she sets something up, the mom being way over there. I need the mom to come into the clock, and I need the mom to be in a certain order looking at her. And we were able to accomplish that in the moment, and we were able to take the secrets off the clock because they don't belong here. And so we got it, it was the fastest transformation. Like, I think I almost needed that to say, keep going with this work, because I she called me on the way home and she said, You won't believe how this visit went with my mom. And I'm like, Well, that doesn't typically happen that fast, but I'm really glad it did for you.

SPEAKER_00:

So I think what's really fascinating in your uh work and in this in this particular uh uh r story, this this experience with your client, as you said, is that you you use the term that we use these days. Astronomers, by the way, get all twisted when astrologers use the term con quantum, but it it is this idea that um, well, the the old axiom for astrology, right, for hundreds of years has been as above, so below. This idea that uh what's happening astrologically around us is is coincident with our birth and with the moment. And you can't you can't abstract the permanent, you can't abstract the person from the environment around them, that that you're right part of the environment. And so uh this therapeutic modality of having the clock, having these pieces, having the person clarify the quantum leap is as she did this work and was clarifying that for herself, reorienting, or as you said, you're helping her, you're helping her reorient the pieces, so to speak, on the clock physically, but also metaphorically. As that's happening, there is kind of an inner psyche magic, at least for her. One could say that client, I'm I'm asking this is rule. I'm not just telling you more asking. I'm gonna hear that the your therapeutic work stirred something in this client that that shifted her own internal orientation, and then when she interacted with her mother, suddenly we start to have some kind of radical change, but in a rapid fashion, that there is something more than even just how this client orients herself to her family dynamic or her sense of mommy or whatever, or mother. But there's something else that's happening. Yeah, there's something more on a quantum field level, like a family lineage level. Isn't that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01:

That's what I'm saying. And you know, you can kind of equate it to, I was thinking of some metaphors to use. So, like if you go into your back is really hurting, right? And it's out of alignment. So you go to a chiropractor, and within, you know, an hour he gets the back back into alignment, right? Well, that's something we can actually better, you know, it's a lot more practical, it's a lot more observable for us, right? Like, okay, my you could see, you know, because then you can say, okay, my back feels better now, my body feels, you know, more in alignment, you know. So that's one level. Or you go to a Reiki practitioner because you're feeling very, you know, out of sorts emotionally. And or you're just anxious. You got this pit in your stomach, you know, and an hour later they do their they do their energy healing on you, and you can go, you know, it's not quite gone, but it feels a lot better. I'm it's calmed down. It's settled.

SPEAKER_00:

It's or I'm compelled to share, you know, decades ago when my mom was still uh alive, uh, out of the blue, my mom uh phoned up and uh had a you know powerful kind of more pointed conversation about family and dynamics. And as soon as I hung the phone up, my lower back went into spasm. I literally I my I as soon as I hung the phone up, I was like, oh, and uh and I had that electric shock and I almost fell to my knees and like my my back was a mess for like a couple of days, you know. The somatic, yeah, you know, psycho-emotional piece of what probably my back had been fine, but then I finished this phone call, my mom about some difficult things that have always been an issue for me. And suddenly I'm almost literally on dropping to my knees with an electric shock in my lower back and my and my lumbar. Uh, and I of course I I did make note of it, like you know, the emotional, psycho-emotional, somatic piece. Nonetheless, I still had the back trauma at that time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because the body gives the score, right? And and and trauma can get activated with a word or you know, a situation, or you know, it's that's the quantum thing, even though there could have been something that your mother said that was a memory from when you were three, or you know, and it's just like oh, that hits me in that. Because I I also love uh I've got a couple of books about like messages from the body, where you've got if you've got a pain in your body, you can actually go to the psychological reasoning for that. And then, you know, I in this work too, I do a lot of pendulum clearing. So it's just like to clear the energy, and then the body can feel better. So the body's a really great vehicle to to give us almost instant uh feedback of like you said, it could trigger something or it could calm it down, right? So it with family constellation, the quantum piece is that you know, if my client is always has her mom way away from her energetically, the mom has got to feel that distance, right? And there's a big thing in family constellation work of uh, you know, it interrupted movements to the mother. Because Bert Hellinger, who is the founder of Family Constellation Work, I saw him interviewed once, and he said every constellation is about the mother. So I thought that was really interesting because the mother is the source of of life, even though you know there's a mother-father component. But he he said it's some, you know, if you get down to some level, you can probably always make every constellation about your mother, which that's a whole nother probably podcast. So yeah, um, so in literal case, you know, to bring it back to oh, sorry, if you want to say something.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I was just gonna say, you know, my my my degree and training as I was building my astrological practice um in my early, you know, uh years in my 20s, still building my practice and of course in college uh and got my degree in art therapy. And in my internship and training and work as an art therapist, particularly I'm thinking back to my internship with this guy who was a really he was a really amazing art therapist. Another modality, you know, another therapeutic modality that brings up an incredible coincidence. You know, and we were we were I was at the time I was interning with psychiatric patients, particularly in a in a lock, in a and um that kind of came off of uh of A Tower, lockdown, you know, where they were really actively psychotic. And then they were in this uh day program where I was interning. Um all kind of a background to say this modality of art therapy, clients drawing or painting, expressing self on the page, on the canvas, or through sculpture, perhaps. Uh, the coincidence of it, you know, the the coincidence, like that proverbial phone call from a mother, the coincidence, like you working with your client, and your client uh on your clock placing these person, these people stones, these stones that symbolize the coincidence, the expression. Uh well, there's something quantum about it. That that art therapy professor uh was doing something unorthodox, which is why I was particularly in training in art therapy versus some other more rigid modality at the time, decades ago. This idea that um the painting, the moment, um it was the healing process. It was describing the patient and their psyche and where what else could it be but that patient's psyche? They are um creating it, they are procreating self onto the clay or onto the paper. It's a just it's a it's a description. Um, and that's sounds like what you're doing, you know. If I can put up this slide, you know, it's it's just really resonating for me that this work that you physically do with your client patient, where they are co-creating or acting, you're there as a witness, you're there as an observer, you're there as a guide to even live it with them, even recreate in their emotional psyche different things that are happening. Um, and really, yeah, it is like a chart. Although, you know, the average astrologer is taught this chart as a mathematical thing. Although it's actually an astronomical thing, is what it really is. It's not mathematical, it's what is. But we're taught of it, we're as you said, we're described or taught to learn the um description of an astrology chart as somehow uh uh objectified from us. It's a descriptor of us, but it's not us, but it describes us when actually it is the moment of our birth, you know, it is like the birthing of that clock, your personal clock.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and just I what was coming to me too is just like you know, the planets are in certain places, the objects being in places kind of ground the energy to it so you can connect the energy and ground it in an object and say it goes here because we're living a human experience, correct? So and when we make these movements, just like the planetaries uh you know, the planets make their movements through the chart, and they open my my teacher always said they open up a window of opportunity. So, what do you want this energy to now be? Because you've got an opportunity to make it whatever you want it to be.

SPEAKER_00:

So there's the difference astrology in these decades, too. This idea that our chart describes, but that we are in motion with it, that our chart is a is it, you know, kind of like the clock or the painting or the clay. It's an extension of self, it's not something doing something. to you it it's coincident with your own it is and that's the there's our there are levels of course astrologically where it is shockingly coincident in uh cycle work with astrology to one's developmental progress but which comes first in this case you could you say which comes first chicken or egg but they're really coinc they're really co-connected the chicken and the egg all along anyway you know the ocean versus the drop of the drop of the ocean versus the ocean which one is more ocean the ocean itself or the drop of the ocean the in a quantum field they're the same can't separate them right exactly you can't separate them and just like if you have a transit where you know Mars hits you ran it's like look out you may have an accident so the way that family constellations movements go is when they when the objects or the the people you know the people circumstances that the objects are representing when we can make positive shifts on the on the paper in the moment just like almost like a transit you can you can have like oh can spark something that can offer another possibility and so then we can show up in a different like a lot of it is part of what what you do in the work is the client always has to feel like everything is in order.

SPEAKER_01:

That's kind of my I'm like I feel like we should leave it here. How do you feel? And they if they say yes then I go okay we've there's a resolution we've shifted a part of this story maybe we've taken it out of this moment maybe we released it back to the quantum field because it was 10 generations before us. So I really think of myself as more of I hold space and I facilitate the um the ability for the client to step into their own healing to place the objects to make the movements so they're they're part of this healing process with me. I'm not the one moving the objects um although sometimes you have to really do a couple of different you know healing statements I use meditations you know but I I'm looking for the client to say I can make the movement because it's their family system. I'm a witness and I'm the facilitator and I know what I'm looking for and I'm not gonna ever leave it in chaos. But I also want them to step in to own their healing and to own their place and their family system as the one that that helped to put this back into order.

SPEAKER_00:

That makes sense sounds like you're um in this therapeutic modality in invoking the person's not only their own healing mechanism within but you're invoking their uh conscious intention I mean I'm projecting here this is just my interpretation but I'm like wondering are you real are you are you invoking their conscious participative uh intention their their intent the intent of their conscious participation the intent of their conscious observation and I'm I guess I'm uh compelled maybe if I were a listener or a viewer better yet it would then I still might be wondering so the family constellations work is a therapeutic modality that had in in its origins zero to do with astrology or astronomy yet as an astronomer yourself which kind of means astronomer too as an astrologer yourself you're you're joining these two um modalities together and see that there is a cross relationship a co-relationship so it begs the question now um as an astrologer who's trained in family constellations work and who practices as a family constellations healer and therapist um do how how do we bring in the astral or can we bring in the astrology piece?

SPEAKER_01:

So here's your chart and I think you had shared with me that you were going to be using your chart as a maybe a a jump point or something to help do that join these systems Yeah exactly so if you yeah my chart you know we can kind of look at you know my journey and how did I you had your clock that you use with with the session and but you also have a chart there when you in your session right I mean yeah right um and so if we just look at you know family is fourth house right we kind of enter the foundation of our chart is the fourth house and if you notice I've got Mars and Venus right down there at the very bottom so the masculine energy the feminine energy father mother right surrounding that fourth house cusp in Aquarius so I was the oddball from the day I was born in my family system and also I think speaks to me looking at family systems a little bit differently you know family constellation work is gaining popularity but it's still not that commonly known you know in the United States right is it found more is it found more in Europe by the way yeah because Bert Collinger was um he was German and in my trainings you know it's like it's an international house of pancakes right like there's people there are people from all over the world and they are facilitators and you know and if you meet somebody especially from Europe like family constellation work they will typically know it. They've heard of it they know what it is you know um but they just the fact that it's an Aquarius and Aquarius rules astrology right so I'm pairing astrology with a new you know a a non-traditional energetic type of modality and if you follow the energy thread like I like to do so Aquarius the modern ruler is Uranus right it sits right up there in the 11th house which is to me goals aspirations income from business but it sits right next to Pluto which rules my ascendant and Scorpio right and then I've got the moon in Aries uh in the sixth house I've got a in I do individual sessions so my chart is a lot you know and the ruler of my son Saturn that sits next to Chiron and Chiron's the wounded healer right we come in with these wounds and we feel like we can't heal them ourselves and we can't necessarily just talk it out.

SPEAKER_00:

We've got to shift things we've got to shift the energy of it so I feel like my chart is pretty well suited in general for family constellation work so it sounds like when you in your uh mind and psyche when you uh correlate some of the trainings and premises of family constellation work and when you when you meld them together using an astrological uh format of course for those who don't know with astrology this wheel uh it actually absolutely has uh interpretational format to it uh you know the wheel has you know what's above and what's below or what's outer what's inner I mean there are different ways to look at a chart that are really foundational to uh learning astrology um like we could say the bottom of a chart we commonly know is that midnight it's where the sun is at midnight it's you know it's beneath the observer's feet you know we have the sky above us and at midnight if the you know the the sun is not overhead but below so the bottom of a chart is internal and that's why you're saying the family you know this the Saturn there and that Venus Mars there you're you're you're talking about your personal chart highly what's that yeah how you kind of enter into the lifetime and if you think about it so Mars rules my ascendant and Venus rules my seventh house cusp so that's to me that's the relationship arena right that that's what I'm really interested in astrology are the relationships between people and specifically you know family systems. And you know when I when I start with clients very typically if I especially if I do you know natal chart work versus cycles that are happening in present um I look at a chart as a not only the the person it's a it's a descriptor of their birth their their energetic coming in the you could say the quantum field this person is coincident with you know getting earthed um but simultaneously the chart describes what this person's encountering. So when you say Scorpio rising ruled by Mars and Tara setting rule by Venus and they're together here in the bottom of your chart at the point of midnight or family the nest where we are at midnight the nest I see it as a descriptor of what you were experiencing at your birth like the main principles were you know identity and and other or one party and another part like mom and dad two party in fact the V you know you said Venus and Mars the male the female you know that there are two people here giving birth to a child male female your chart says to me that they were experiencing in this that this birth defines something about their marriage particularly a birth will always define a person's marriage no matter what state or place in marriage you are but sometimes you know a birth of a child is much more potent for a marital marital moment than others. If you have you know seven kids somewhere the sixth or seventh kid is like you know we've been down this road before and then maybe the focus is external or career but this chart would say the focus is certainly inward and maritally important. Wouldn't be wouldn't be for an astrologer it wouldn't be surprising that we would look at that as an astrologer and say oh Venus love feminine Mars masculine Venus Mars romance sexuality that there's something foundational here happening that you were experiencing in their dynamic when you're born I so I'm wondering about you know I'm we're can I'm kind of kicking around kicking this around here wondering what your thoughts are about what I'm saying yeah uh so I mean in my birth order I'm the youngest and you know I think typically the young the young one in a family system I always say they're they can be the free one right so they're and you know I the I've got this in in Aquarius.

SPEAKER_01:

So I think you know I was born into a very like tight knit family but I was always somebody who wanted to be free and be an individual and I think always a little I always felt kind of misunderstood because I think I was bringing something new to the family system. I don't know specifically um I know that's a good question. Like I I don't know what they were going through at the time I actually never I could ask my dad he's still alive but I don't really know what they were going through. Um I know they had to give they gave her cod liver oil to induce the birth because she wanted to have the firstborn on the on January 1st and that happened so there's the Mars right we took some we gave her you know um oh and actually because her doctor wanted to win a bet and told my mom that he was going to give her part of the proceeds and he never did and then he ended up going to jail later on I was told so there was that Venus component with money.

SPEAKER_00:

So I think we have we think we have some stories to to uh to to unfold here that you're chart in terms of the chart mirroring this family storyline you have a that's a pretty uh you just threw some interesting curve balls there with that story.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah that's what I can tell you at the time of the birth um you know she didn't want to take it but she did and then you know I was born shortly after that so um I always say you know and I found out later I didn't know I found out later she had a couple miscarriages before me which is another big thing in a str in family constellation work. Now that didn't change my birth order but I always said well I wasn't quite ready for this family yet so I you know I think that was probably me going nope nope and then I'm like oh they gave me you know they gave her cod librar oil and then they tricked me and I came out so I you know I it's it's you could go that's what's the beauty of astrology right you can just take the stories and just like just keep going with the energy of it. But that yeah I think it's it sets up my chart really well for the enfoldment of you know constellation and family constellation work.

SPEAKER_00:

No you see it so I that's why I was going to actually um you know and I want you to be aware uh of our time and what time you have too for for your day and for the for the remainder of this program because you had a number of other things to share with us today and I so I'll let you guide us how much time you have uh you know for for this for for this part B. It sounds like we're gonna be heading since we have a bunch of charts to go through here we might be having a part C to this um story but you know life is complex charts are complex family family constellation work sounds complex in and of itself so maybe tell us where you want to go here with this a little bit but I I just wanted to comment you know to to me the thing that leads off the page with your uh with your chart is the personal planets are all in the bottom part of the chart uh and that moon is near for me as an astrologer even though astrologers look at these houses really rigidly I think or you know firmly a sixth house moon I see that moon is connected to the seventh house that moon just set astronomically not long before your birth moon we take to be mommy in astrology sun we take to be daddy we take moon to be mommy not just because we're told it but because the moon cycle is 29 and a half days it's a cycle of nature that defines mencies and and uh ovulation so you know moon is is ovulation mencies mommy birthing the womb so moon mommy here is in this part of the chart that deals with as you said others and you you mentioned having that moon there would have you work one-on-one with your clients patients in their healing process maybe even playing a nurturing role uh I mean I think it's interesting that that the Pluto body the centaur body sedna is right next to your moon uh and iris on the other side of your moon that's a little interesting number two we can dig into that for those who know about Pluto bodies uh or centaur bodies like iris the planetoid that deposed Pluto for astronomers a while back and Sedna another um iris uh Pluto kind of body but the mythos of Sedna is really a potent one and I don't know you know if that's something since you have it in your chart is that something I mean I'd love to work with Sedna. Do you work with Sedna um Lisa?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah I I've become um I'm getting certified in the dwarf planet university because I always say Pluto's my favorite energy out there. I just love Pluto and so all these dwarf planets are octaves of Pluto. Well what okay whatever it is maybe it's not a planet but I love Pluto. It's the most potent part of your chart to me. So to me when I and I I just I recently started working with the dwarf planets and to me the Sedna next to my moon and on the seventh cusp says that I'm really interested in I probably connect more with like what I would call my soul family in a way you know like um and and that working with families as part of my soul mission.

SPEAKER_00:

Like I was very much into family or into conscious parenting methodologies and um you know again that that connecting to life connecting to other people so I think it's an interesting when I found out where Sedna was placed I said well that makes a lot of sense right well now you're bringing I think it's two you brought up two important points I think and those two important points whoops I meant to go this way was um what how are astrological chart or maybe uh the work that you do when you sit with patients and clients the clock that you have them create the the form of um of of moving parts of themselves around this clock this inner and outer clock that you're doing which I have not heard this particular technique so fascinating that you have this as a primary piece of your practice with your patients um but it does beg the question for me and I would wonder for maybe viewers and listeners does our birth chart describe our soul us and or does it describe what our soul us was born into you know for me I think it's both at the same time in other words we're born into a particular mommy daddy experience because on the continuum of the quanta if you will we're at some point in soul consciousness and oh this woman and this guy have a certain consciousness and where they are in their dynamic at their growth and in this case you know in 1966 you know where they are in their growth as souls this soul come Lisa comes in and so for me that moon says in this incarnation you may as you just said partner emotionally partner with people about family matters moon astrology we know moon is moon is family and mommy and home and and the moon even rules astrologically residence like real estate like you know moving from one house to another right so having that moon in that area of partnership says that you may um emotionally seek to partner with people that's one view you know that's your that's your nature and I look at the chart and say yes and that has a root in that in 1966 when Lisa was born mom was going some through through some identity issue particularly regarding her marriage and partnership mom was going through identity issues as a woman giving birth in a relationship in her world you know so I look at these planets as describing what you were what you were psychologically emotionally soul wise uh absorbing you made references today not just to this mommy daddy moon sun in our charts relationship in your chart but you talked about the lineage the the lineage that we're not just born to mom and dad but to a whole lineage like an energetic living lineage right that it's pregnant or living it's alive in our family system and I always see I think You and I share this. We see the lineage in the chart. There are actually planets that describe lineage, and there are parts of the chart that describe lineage, but I'm just curious. I'm kind of right kicking it around here.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and in this, yeah, we're all born in a system, so we can, you know, my Pluto Uranus astrology, you know, with Uran tied to Uranus, ruling my Mars and Venus, sitting next to Pluto, where you know, I'm really interested in let's get to the core of it, because this isn't gonna get healed until we get to the core of it, right? But they're in Virgo systems, right? The overall tone of my chart is Virgo. Yeah, so I mean, so finding a cis, you know, energetic healing within a system makes a lot of sense in my chart.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely, it does. Astrologically, absolutely it does. And and and I say again, you know, I guess I got fixated. I don't know if if our viewers or listeners will say, Alexander, you know, let her guide you a little bit because she's the family, but so forgive me if I'm in any way. No, no, this is great. But and but I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm hearing that this chart describes your journey, including the family system you were born into. How could it not? You know, I I always tell clients our charts describe our genetics. The genetic is there, the family lineage is there. Mom, you know, mommy and daddy are there, patriarchy, Saturn, and Pluto matriarchy are there, and the dynamic of the family social system, because very commonly, although this is more common maybe now for young younger people or childbirth age couples to birth outside of a family dynamic, but there have been you know thousands of years where and and still certain cultures are are notoriously particularly family-centric, you know, like the proverbial Jewish mother, or you know, the Italian, or maybe I should say the Sicilian, or I mean, and there are certain cultural norms that still exist uh in in different family cultures. They they are different from one family lineage and culture and world culture, uh, one nation to another. Um, there are differences, um, but I think it's simultaneously I hear that you were saying the training from Bert Hellinger, the founder of Family Constellations work, particularly focuses on the matriarchy, the mother, the mommy figure, the mother, or the moon in a person's birth chart. So um I I know again there are some other charts you had that you wanted to share to expand a little bit.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I I don't know if we can get to them today. Maybe we can sort of just touch on them uh as we come to close for some of the soon. So but is there anything you want to share about about that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I so I think another point I want to make is that I think people can have a misperception that because I'm intuitive, I feel like I'm getting more intuitive, but I wouldn't call myself that psychic that, you know, when somebody sits down, I think they always think an astrologer is going to be able to tell them exactly everything about them. But the way I look at it is I wouldn't be able to look at my chart and say, Oh, you're a family constellation facilitator, right? But when somebody tells me that, then I could go, oh, okay. And then I could say, okay, well, did you feel like the different one in your family? Do you feel like you're here to create some change in your family system? And they can say, yes. And then I can, because I'm just reading the archetypes of, you know, when I know what they're doing with it, then I can really tune into the energy and explore with them how it's working for them and what, you know, maybe they don't. I liked being the different one in my family. I kind of own it now as a I'm proud of it, but it was hard growing up, you know, when you grow up in the middle of, you know, nowhere Michigan and everybody does everything the same, and you're like, I don't think or feel this way, you know. So just even giving validation to people and then exploring and go, well, it makes sense that you're doing this now. It's like a journey to get there, right? So it's um, and so that's I think one thing I wanted to say about it is we're following the energy, knowing what I do, but it it's really it fits the chart really well, but it doesn't say that I had to do this, right? It wasn't my per se destiny, but it's a potential that I stepped into. And and when you explore that with somebody, they can go, oh, I can really tag into it because it I under it it's me, you know, it feels like me.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. So an astrologer might say for Lisa's chart, folks, that that moon near that uh western cusp, that western horizon line with Sedna there, that you know, she involves herself with family. Or we could say um with planets at the bottom of her chart and that moon, that she's a real estate agent. In other words, you'd be involving yourself with family as a real estate agent. You'd be certainly involved with families and guiding families and being even emotionally, emotionally sort of a nurturing guide to families. If you were a real estate agent or a real estate broker, that could be one expression. It depends on the consciousness of the person. But by all means, when you look at the the the sum total of your chart, it certainly says a powerful inner world and a powerful outer world, an outer world that is Pluto, Uranus, and an outer world that is Jupiter, or Zeus, or uh I love it in Tibetan astrology, in Vedic astrology, they call Jupiter uh guru. So you have guru very high in your chart here, in the area that deals the quadrant that deals with others and their their intellectual psychology and their emotions and their family dynamic, and then that Pluto Uranus, as you said, um, you know, it's very it's it describes something else. That if you were a real estate agent broker, you would still need to bring in kind of an educative guru and uh probing, you know, uh uh review kind of a piece. Um she couldn't just be uh only a real estate broker and agent, not that that's uh you know a minimal thing, it's just that that that just doing the job would still the chart says you'd need to in the outer world evoke that guru, that that Jupiter guru, the teacher. So here involving families and family dynamics, the teacher is invoked, you know, being a family constellations therapist. So the chart's descriptive of the potential. You're right. So it depends on how what lens, sort of what lens we use to look at the chart. Um, and and for all I know, maybe when you were 20 years old, maybe you were a real estate agent broker, or maybe you took courses and thought, well, maybe you know, money-wise to earn I should do that. A client might with this kind of chart. The point is though, yeah, right, layers of the onion, like possibility, just like you were saying, you know, what what you co-create with your patient has pregnant possibility. And so I don't know if I'm putting words into your mouth here. Maybe you could no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01:

That that's a great way to to explore it because yeah, and I would say the reluctant teacher, because I got those interceptions, right? So I think I'm being propelled, you know, my north node and Gemini I'm being propelled to step into it, but uh a little kicking and screaming with my charts. So um, but it's it's just it's it's just you know, fun to explore and and uh the I love what I do.

SPEAKER_00:

So so setting this up, you would. Um you you were gonna discuss uh Clarence next year we'll dig into Clarence. Uh and yeah, let's dig into Clarence some charts. Yeah, and let me just so yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'll set it up because Clarence is my uncle. Um and he's my father's oldest brother. And I I didn't really understand this until I found family constellation work that I had an entanglement with his energy. And um Clarence was tragically killed at at the age of five. And so it's yeah, and um and just what a beautiful energy he was, you know, or is you know, his energy I think is still alive in in through me, I think, and I'm proud of that.

SPEAKER_00:

Interesting in your birth chart because Clarence is your father's brother. Yeah, and your your chart, your birth chart has your son in that third house of siblings at the bottom of the chart of family, and that son is powerfully placed as some kind of a highlight point of your father's consciousness, which deals with we know astrology teachings say third house is the house of siblings. It might imply that dad and sibling issues are in some way pregnant, pregnant for him, you know, in some way. It wouldn't be rare, by the way. I have found if there's a a moon in the third house or a son of the third house, as you have it, that a moon mommy or sun daddy might have a uh major sibling issue, or be have a bit have been raised by a sibling or have raised siblings. I mean, it very commonly are sibling entanglements for these planets, these people the planets symbolize. You know, the planets symbolizing, kind of like the stone symbolizing, right? I know that that doesn't escape you at all. Those who are watching or listening might say when Lisa does her clock of a person's being in life, she's using objects to symbolize. So it's just interesting. Your father's brother. Here, son is uh our daddy in our birth chart in the third house of sib of siblings. It highlights a sibling theme in your family through your father. That's trippy. Commonplace with astrology, by the way, to have such such mirrors, right, in a chart.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's short distance travel, right? And my Mars is there too. And so Clarence was hit by a car in front of his parents. Very tragically. And it it describes yeah. I mean, it you can make those symbols work in my chart.

SPEAKER_00:

We we may have to do a little I I have a chart of someone yeah, a tragic similar story. Mom mom pulled into the driveway. Yeah, yeah. So a similar story. Mom pulled into the driveway and a ta toddler was in the driveway, her toddler and she struck and killed her toddler, pulling her car into the driveway. Yeah. Oh my gosh. We can go back and look at some similar charts and how they mirror. You know, it it throws up the idea. Do our charts do our charts pre- So this being your chart, does this say that this could happen for you? Uh or is it describing things that have fueled your journey through your father?

SPEAKER_01:

I think fueled my journey through my father. And because what was coming to me is I I am not saying that I am Clarence in terms of my I incarnated as the energy of Clarence, but what I did was I in entanglements, um, and we can we can take take this a little further because Clarence was holding on to his father's hand. And he let go of his father's hand in front of his mother and his father, and he ran across the street in the town that they live in, short distance travel, and it was struck and killed by an automobile right in front of them.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

So again, it was, you know, I mean, just the trauma of I don't know how, and I and they, you know, unfortunately, I never really got to meet my my father's parents because his mother passed before I was born and his father passed when I was two, so I don't remember him. So, you know, I can't I can't imagine getting out of bed the next day, you know. So the fact that they stayed together as a couple and you know, they had um they had four other children, you know, that further exacerbated by do you have your dad's chart, by the way?

SPEAKER_00:

Astrologies.

SPEAKER_01:

You have the correct time of birth for him? I don't have a time. They were all born at home, according including Clarence. But the story has layers to it, but it's just, you know, just to give you um, you know, so what I guess what I'm saying is I wasn't um I'm not saying that I am Clarence, but I I believe I was entangled in his energy because they were so grief stricken. And and he's the oldest son of a farming family. My my grandfather was a farmer, you know, so you can imagine the oldest son is going to take over the farm. Well, then they have three daughters, and then my dad's born. My dad takes over the farm. I grew up in the house that Clarence was born in, and my dad was born in. So I do have my father's chart. We can add that in next time. Um, and so, but they basically, my father said that nobody talked about Clarence. Like there was no picture, there weren't pictures of Clarence, nobody talked about Clarence. So he was excluded from the family system, not because you know he wasn't loved. I think he was loved too much and was too painful for them to have reminders. So his energy was, they were like, okay, we're gonna put his energy out. And that makes the family system incomplete. So you anytime, and it was nothing that my mother that my grandmother did that was wrong, you know, or my grandfather wrong. Like it's not about right or wrong. It's just like I can't get through my day if I'm looking at a picture of clearance because it's gonna remind me of that moment, right? So my dad always said we never talked about him. We there were no pictures. And I was always fascinated by that story. Once I heard that story, it would go in loop in my head, and I'd be like, why did he let go of his dad's hand? Why did he, you know, why did he do that? Why did this, you know, like why, why, why? And and there were no answers.

SPEAKER_00:

And you know, so well, you you have brought up a power. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Go ahead. Forgive me. Yeah, yeah. You had a little we have a little delay mic-wise. That's why that happens more, not just me doing my interrupting. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah. So I guess my I kind of want to sum up there's a whole story about how Clarence was brought back into the family system, and that was through the work of family constellations. And I have to tease it to say it's an interesting story, but I didn't even do a constellation on Clarence. But Clarence energy is back in the family system, and now I am more connected in my family system because I think I got entangled to say Clarence needs to come back in. You know, there's energetic elements of Clarence. And and nobody in my siblings didn't talk about Clarence. Like nobody took, and I didn't really talk about them, but I always thought about them in my head. I was just like, why, why did that happen?

SPEAKER_00:

You know. So I my my my forgive my interruption before again, you know, but you're just you're hitting you're hitting a powerful theme, I think, in general. And it's it's a huge theme. It's really kind of, I guess, what spawned even the title of this particular podcast that I'm doing, you know, the astrology of family karma. You mean you're you're hitting the nail on the head. You're reminding me, you know, I I uh astrologers might differ, you may differ. Um when we talk about medical diagnostic astrology, there are certain areas of a chart that can describe the potentials of the genetic, you know, path that we might unfold that are our body, our our our our health. Um but one thing I always teach when I teach that is that every planet in your chart describes something about the physiological body.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Parallel, every planet in the chart does tell this story, and the story might be beyond what we cognitively know. So very commonly, uh, we can think about you know the human journey, uh, the family journey. Uh, I think, frankly, uh, without getting into it, you know, and riffing out too much at this time, but you know, the journey of let's say you know, in a in a Judeo Christian primarily Judeo-Christian Western model of men and women, there are roles. There are role layers that have been that were traditional. We go back to the 1930s in in the US at least, we could see like the 30s, 40s, some definitive roles of male, female that right now LGBTQ and so forth are are challenging, these roles that we've got for men and women. Um, but the birth chart describes that that dynamic, it describes that society that we're born into, and it describes lineage, not just in a general way, but each planet specifically has a tale to tell that's beyond what the person themselves or even their parents might know. Much like each planet in a chart describing the physical, the physiological physiology and the medical aspects of a chart, each planet describes themes more than we know. You know, I I look at the moon and Pluto for women and the female lineage and the and the matriarchy, and it always tells a matriarchal story. And since women, you know in a in a patriarchally dominated culture for thousands of years now, since women have a certain role and placement in a patriarchal culture, there are layers to that onion, and most charts describe it. So you're I think you're opening up a Pandora's box in a way that most astrologers don't take as concrete. But you and I know it's one reason we came together, I believe, that it is concrete. You know, the proverbial clearance of our charts is there for everybody. Everybody's chart has some version of a clearance. Everything in your chart doesn't describe something important.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So and every family system has a story like what happened to Clarence, right? You may just not know it, and you may not be as directly connected to it. Um, and I didn't understand how I was connected to it, and I didn't understand how it was affecting my life in ways that I couldn't have even imagined until I found the work. And so I'd like to get into all of that, you know, that story next time because I think it will give an example, just like I tried to do with the, you know, my my friend who had the issue with her mother. I think this work can feel, you know, even astrology can feel like like, what does this all mean? What how do we how do I make this practical in my life?

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And and and Bert Hellinger um he he set things up very much in roles, like you were talking about before, right? We are questioning the roles now, but you know, the father had a specific place in the family system, and the mother had a specific place, and those energies, you know, and the children and the birth order, and all of it was really important. And you can find that all in the chart. And then you can also say, okay, well, we live in this culture and things think the you know, how we think about them might be changing, but he goes back to the basics with this, and so um, there is that piece that again I think connects really well with astrology because when they determine the archetypal characteristics, they assign You know, planet, you know, the moon is typically mom, the sun is typically dad, you know. So it it's a system, and the family system and family constellations works with the family system. So it all I think pairs really. It's a way to read. Yeah, like my teacher is a body worker, right? He reads energy through the body and through the he can see energy, and I'm like, I can't do that, but I can do it through this, you know. And to the same, you know, resolution in just a different way.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you know, another fascinating discussion, uh, dear Lisa. Uh, a brilliant, I I I mean, I think the we the we've ended here on I think the the most important, I mean, I think the most important note. I think what when we talk Western astrology, I always say to my students and clients, what are most of us get? How do we get into astrology? It's a journey of the self for starters. Our chart, we typically will study astrology and start studying our own chart. And if we look at the chart as this uh metaphor that it is describing, you know, a multi-layered metaphor. Your son's in the third house describes elements of you and your energy. Your energy in the sun describes, you know, daddy, your daddy third third house is similar. So there's a there's a multi-layered story. We could reword that and say the family constellations work describe is descriptive. We could even say the genetics are indeed descriptive. You know, it now we say epigenetics. Did Clarence running across the street and getting hit in front of his parents at age, I think he was at five, did that even genetically, epigenetically affect the chromosomal body itself? In other words, where do we store so-called memory? You know, what is memory? What is soul memory? What is soul? You know, we've opened up uh Pandora's box that charts open up any darn way. So um I wonder.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, I have another story about the soul. Oh, I'm sorry. I was gonna tease another story that I have. I have charts on it. A dear friend of mine that talks about how you can use constellation work in in look in astrology and looking at the soul journey. So that's a teaser for the story beyond clearance. So that's that's family, you know, lineage, but I've got a soul story that will blow everybody's mind too.

SPEAKER_00:

So well, uh there it's always uh it's always really fascinating working with you. Bless you for coming on my program. I our kind of our program together, our work together is terribly, I think it's interesting. I hope other people do. We're now getting deeper into what astrology is and what family constellations therapy work is and and how maybe they are married together. So to reach Lisa, um we will have your contact information in the in the show notes as always. Um we can reach you uh Lisa uh Hagenbach at uh Lisa at future echo, one word, future echo.org. Future echo, one word, Lisa at futureecho.org, uh, and they find you at www.futureecho.org as well, right? Yes. To book an appointment with Lisa, to contact Lisa for her wonderful work, and uh also you know for Alexander as well, you know, please do uh please do subscribe, folks. Those subscriptions are helpful, those followings are helpful on my podcast to to get those computer algorithms to to list our program so more people can find us. Thank you so much, dear Lisa, for uh for sharing once again. And we'll look for forward to like over the next week or two part C. Because yeah, you know, you can't really quantify folks. This this is a pretty big juicy story. Family, family, family constellations work. Uh you could do many programs about that alone. Astrology, same thing. So thank you everyone for listening and watching. We'll catch you next time for part C with Lisa Hagenbach. Thank you, dear Lisa. Thank you, Alexander. Thank you, love. Bye bye.