The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships
Welcome to The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships Podcast, hosted by me, Alexander Mallon, along with my co host Sheila G.
As a Certified Astrologer and Intuitive who has practiced for over 47 years, I offer Consulting and Counseling Services to a broad clientele, from business leaders to entrepreneurs to teachers and more.
This podcast is about exploring how and why we are ‘astro-genetically’ bonded to our parents, and how our own birth chart is a map of this powerful 'soul-birthing' moment for our entire family. Astrological birth charts are a mirror of the Soul, highlighting hidden themes and revealing our Sacred Karmic Lessons.
Each episode will address our family relationships and family themes, as well as how we relate to our spouses, friends, co-workers and other relationships in our world.
We look forward to sharing and learning together with you all, and may the Stars guide your way on.
The Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships
Astrology & Family Constellations: Your Birth Chart Remembers What Your Family Forgot
A FAMILY SYSTEM has a shape—an invisible order that decides where love flows and where it gets stuck. When someone is excluded through silence or grief, a later descendant often carries the missing thread.
We bring that truth to life by weaving Family Constellations Therapy with Astrology, showing how birth charts can spotlight the very places where a lineage needs repair, recognition, and a simple, human honoring.
Our guest, Astrologer and Family Constellations Therapist Lisa Hagenbach, shares a story that changed her life: a five-year-old uncle, Clarence, lost in an accident and later lost to memory. For decades, there were no photos and no talk—just an ache that lived under the floorboards of the family. Then a single moment: finding Clarence’s picture, hanging it on the wall, and witnessing a quiet miracle as her father—once dismissive of astrology—began asking about her work, offering the blessing that had been missing. Through this lens, we unpack the “orders of love,” why everyone in a family has the right to belong, and how restoring a place to the forgotten lets the living breathe easier.
We get practical and precise. Mars and 3rd-house symbolism speak to siblings and sudden events. Sun in 3rd invokes ideas of a link between father and siblings. Black Moon Lilith points to the untold stories and off-limits emotions.
Synastry between Lisa and Clarence reveals striking ties, underscoring how charts can map Transgenerational Patterns with clarity.
Utilizing astrological charts as 'guides', we also outline how a Constellation Session flows: choosing one issue, setting representatives, tracking movements that put people back in their right place, and layering Astrology to deepen, underscore and target the work. Along the way, we connect these insights with epigenetics, recognizing how trauma echoes across generations and how intentional rituals can soften those echoes.
As we each share the human experience of family roles, connections and subterranean family themes, this conversation offers a grounded path and generational insight.
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*To contact our guest Lisa Hagenbuch for Sessions and information: www.futureecho.org
*To contact Alexander for Consultations, Sessions or questions: www.astrologyspirit.com
Find out about YOUR important chart placements !
~Alexander can be contacted for Consultation and Coaching sessions. You may contact him via his email: info@astrologyspirit.com or website: https://www.astrologyspirit.com/
You can view his offerings and book directly here: https://www.astrologyspirit.com/book-online
Thank you for listening!
Alexander & Sheila
So welcome again, folks, to the Astrology of Family Karma and Relationships podcast. I'm your host, Alexander Mallen, and again, so lucky to have a wonderful fellow astrologer and therapist healer, uh Lisa Hagenbach. And so, Lisa, welcome again. Thanks for coming.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you, Alexander. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So, folks, today I'm so fortunate to work with Lisa because she's introduced uh I I really think actually a powerful uh juncture of the tools of family constellations work, as Lisa will tell us, and astrology. Um, it really is um kind of uh nearer and dearer to my heart than I could have known before knowing Lisa. It's uh in some ways material and work I've uh been doing all these years of my own practice with clients, um, which really is, I think Lisa, um astrology charts as a mirror of the soul, you know, not something that people don't know about. I think a lot of astrologers speak of it that way. Our personal chart, a mirror of our soul, who we are, how who the individual is. Um that's really what a chart is. It's a map of the sky when you're born. And in that way, there's kind of like this coincidence of of creation around us. We're born into this world, and our chart describes that astronomically and seasonally. Um, so I always look at astrology, Lisa, as um as this this archetypal tool. This map of the sky is what it is, astronomically. Uh, since I'm a backyard astronomer, I'm I mean, I'm all over that one that the astrology charts are maps of the sky. And it does describe whether we're born during a new moon, a full moon, or whether we're born during, as I joke, in the winter a proverbial blizzard, or in the summer during a pool party, you know. The chart describes your season sign. And so that's what most of us know about astrology that's either to do with the seasons or the signs of the seasons or the time of day, and all those factors are part of what a chart is. Um, but that chart is complex in in terms of what it mirrors. I mean, it mirrors the situation you're born into. And so um, Lisa, you are a healer and astrologer and family therapist, and particularly um family, I should say family constellations therapy. So you're gonna tell us again about that. We've we did part A and sort of part one, part two, part A, part B before. This is kind of our third program about the foundations of family constellations therapies and astrology. But um, you'll you can fill us in about some of these, uh, some of what this means. So let me go to um a screen share here. Okay. And some uh some slides that we've created for today, and you can kind of uh you know fill us in here. Um so indeed, we're discussing family constellations therapy, dear Lisa, family constellations therapy. And you know, when I we first heard the term family constellations, I thought it it had to do with you know astronomy and constellations. But I'm not it's not true. So tell us a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I felt the same. I just thought it had something to do with astrology, but uh, and I love the slide because we, as we talked of before, you know, the star clusters in order to form you know an image that we can see from Earth and the sky, they the stars all need to be in the exact in their exact place in the cluster for us to see order, uh, if you will. And that's the similarity with family constellation work, is that the the family members all in a family system when they are in their proper order, then the flow of life and love is harmonious. And when things uh inevitably become disordered or inharmonious, family constellation work is a way to put that back in order so that life, the individual family members' lives can flow in a in a much more peaceful uh and harmonious way with each other.
SPEAKER_02:So um the the term family constellation therapy uh again had no particular root in astrological work.
SPEAKER_00:No, it was founded by Bert Hellinger, and he was um German um many different modalities, but he's he really came up with the orders of love by observing the Zulu tribes for 16 years, and he saw that there were there was an order in a family system, and when everything was in order, everything flowed well, and so he extrapolated. Um, I know he explained it in the in the the past two episodes, but he came up with these orders of love, and they really hold true, uh just in their in their basic form.
SPEAKER_02:And it's it's a guideline for a family system to operate more um you know better, I I guess you know, more peaceful and so family so Bert Hellinger f uh founded this and coined the term family constellations work, meaning a constellation of family members. Is that the the implication?
SPEAKER_00:The implication, yes, is that we're all born into a family system, and each there are these orders where all the members have a right and uh need to belong. And that uh, but there's a hierarchy in terms of the love flowing from the ancestors to the descendants, and there's a number of different orders that when everything is is in its proper place, then the whole family system functions better as a whole. But we're always, you know, you know, individuals and free will and human consciousness, you know, there's a lot that can put a family system out of order, and family constellations work, it works to make it more a complete system.
SPEAKER_02:It's it's interesting because you you did introduce today, as in other shows, previous shows that we've done about this. Again, this is sort of our intention today, folks, is uh, you know, part three, where we're gonna kind of have Lisa and I put put the really Lisa put the rubber to the road of astrology and its connection to family constellations therapies. Um But you you did um illustrate that family constellations uh earlier moments ago, you you talked about the star patterns of of actual astronomical constellations and how from our earth-bound perspective you could say from our our homebound perspective or maybe our family-bound perspective, you know, it's another I'm mixing some metaphors here, uh, that we you know we view the sky, the nighttime sky, and we connect the dots. You know, clearly different cultures, um, you know, from Inuit uh in Alaska to uh Amazonian cultures, you know, we'll connect those dots differently. But we've adopted to a great degree uh internationally, you know, Greco-Roman constellations, the signs of the zodiac, for example, uh, or the constellation of Orion, uh, you know, the hunter, etc., the Big Dipper, you know, Ursa Major. We connect these star dots. There's kind of an order that even the ancients to navigate the nighttime sky and navigate their environment, or maybe celestial navigation uh on the water, early explorer explorers, they would connect these dots in their minds to find their way uh in the nighttime sky, and in reference to the earth we we walk and and navigate upon. So you're saying that you know a family constellation can be ordered, like flowingly ordered, or conversely, more typically of a human experience, not perfectly ordered, like disordered or not organized. Can you clarify that a little more again?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so the chart is great because everyone and everything in your life is contained within it. So you can know it's a great descriptor of where you are in your family system. That's why, and we talked about transgenerational astrology and it's and looking at the charts. And so um it it and like I said, it it describes our ancestors, our descendants, and it can give some archetypal information to it. Maybe it describes um part of the our purpose within our family system and what we're here to either carry forward because it's working really well, or we need to, you know, maybe it's stagnant and we need to disrupt it, and we need to have somebody come in and do things differently, you know, and to just to get uh the family system. I I think of it as like vital, right? You know, because you need movement in order to keep things vital. And um, and it can be like I'm trying to heal something within the family system. So it's I it blends really well together because I can read the energy of um a life issue and you know that somebody's come to constellate. I can read that energy through their birth chart, and then I can pull in the ancestors that might be um connected to the pattern because when a pattern isn't solved five generations forward, it doesn't, it doesn't end with that person who couldn't solve it. It the descendants come in to carry um the issue into the next generation to try to make it whole, to make the family system whole. But then inevitably it goes awry because it wasn't theirs to, you know, it wasn't theirs to begin with. It's like getting somebody else's upset stomach that's not yours and you can't process it.
SPEAKER_02:That that's a really grounded analogy. You know, getting someone else's upset stomach. Yeah, I think it's grounded in a in an extremely uh common uh it's typical family uh dynamic. You know, mom and dad um come together, uh, mom and dad, mom gets pregnant, mom and dad get pregnant, they're carrying a child, she's carrying a child, the child is born into some situation. And, you know, as we know, all of us, our lives have these flows, you know, many, many, many chapters or or layers of that flow or lack of flow. The flow can be harmonious, the flow can be staccato. So uh that that is another one thing you're introducing, this idea of of the flow or maybe even stuck energy. And it has me thinking, by the way, um, as we go to do some some more with our um PowerPoint here, some of the slides we'll talk about in a moment are our charts, you know, our personal charts. That the lay public, I would say, believes that uh when a person's birth chart is calculated by an astrologer, it looks static. It looks like a set thing. You know, those of us who come from a different uh God, I'm almost at this point coming from a different era, you know, not the digital, the analog era, you know, where we think of a Polaroid, you know, uh a Polaroid camera back in the 60s or 70s, you'd take a picture and it would spit out a little, you know, square of a of a picture, an instant picture, which it was a big deal back then. Um but it's a snapshot on time. Yeah. And it is, it's it's a a micro snapshot of exactly the astronomy of everything, where things are astronomically aligned and a local horizon line, the earth we're born onto, right? We all know that as astrology students, that that that horizontal line is the physical earth the soul is arriving on. So the top part of a chart is the visible astronomical sky, the bottom part of a chart is what is beneath the observer's feet, like you know, literally beneath your feet at the earth you're standing on. So the astrology chart has this great symbology. But the other piece that the chart reminds me, or that rather your comment reminded me, is that this chart is while it looks static, an astrologer, astronomer knows every one of these planetary bodies, like the moon, are in motion. It's just a snapshot, just like a picture. You you go to the the ocean, you go to the beach, you take pictures of your friends. It's a snapshot at uh in the moment, but the sun is at the beach, you know, maybe high overhead, and soon will be setting, you know. Everything's in motion in this sky map. It's not static. Inherent for the average astrologer, I think, is that awareness of uh this being part of a system, you know, part of a larger system. Nothing is static, everything's in motion. And so uh when you talk about alignment, like proper alignment, or maybe even you know, uh my words, you know, jazzing things into motion, getting things moving, or people or players in the family system who who get things moving, or players in the family who are disruptors, you know. Right. Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, it's it's a you know. Yeah, I don't know what else to say about that. Sorry. Well I'm a blank.
SPEAKER_02:Sorry. Well, so let's let's get kick back to our um template here. So um, you know, the idea of family constellations therapies, that that therapeutic modality of looking at the individual as part of a greater family system. That in other words, none of us are born into emptiness or a blank slate. We're always born.
SPEAKER_00:We're not an island, we're all born within a uh a community system that we we may want to exit, but you know, the blood is thicker than water, right? You you're in the system you're in.
SPEAKER_02:So well, and then there are different systems. As you said, Bert Hellinger was uh doing his work, a lot of his sort of foundational work, was it in Africa? African nations?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he's he um was a missionary and he studied, he went to uh he was a Jesuit priest, a missionary, went to study the Zulu tribe uh culture, and he mixed in what he saw to some of his, he was a Yungian um analyst, and he was just uh he did a lot of different energy, psychological modalities. And so when he saw the how the tribes functioned and what functioned well within them, I think he he put, you know, brilliantly put this together as a healing modality that has really practical implications for how it can shift uh your life and your relationships. And that's kind of today. I thought we could get into the, you know, the the meat and bones of like, most is all well and good, but how does why would I come to a family constellation session? You know, why would I why would I do this? You know, how would I know what I'm you know needing to clear? You know, we're I'm hoping this story can kind of make it practical, um, of how it operated in my life and how it really propelled me into wanting to do more with the work.
SPEAKER_02:So, you know what crosses my mind when you share that about Bert and his work in uh in uh I'm sorry, what which African nation was he in?
SPEAKER_00:Uh the Zulu tribes.
SPEAKER_02:In Zulu. So that I'm trying to think if that would be uh the Zulu, South Africa, perhaps? I'm forgetting that word the Zulu is or indigenous. Yeah. Um but but the reason I'm going there is he was he was amongst uh we would say by Western standards, third world. Or maybe we should instead third world almost suggests first world better, second world. So maybe we should say in indigenous, or maybe we should say nature-based, a nature-based culture, a natural culture that is not mechanized or artificially uh lighted, so to speak, literally. Uh, and you know, it comes back again to astrology, astronomy for me, you know, the the charts describing nature.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, yeah, they weren't walking around with cell phones, not back then.
SPEAKER_02:Now now that a lot of African nations they actually are, but back then, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Back then, back when he studied it, you know, and that's you know, it's just how, and it was very much, you know, in a way, when you first come to it, you can think, well, this is a little patriarchal because it's like the the father, the mother, the firstborn, you know, but it's just about understanding this through the container of the orders of love, and then um, you know, applying them to modern world living and well, I'm kind of thinking, you know, astrology is timeless in terms of it being astronomy astrology.
SPEAKER_02:It's about cycles of nature. Uh without necessarily man's, you know, divine defining anything. Uh a full moon is a full moon. No matter what part of the planet you're on, no matter what culture you're in, the full moon is the full moon. It's an astronomical phenomenon that's worldwide. And I'm thinking that Bert's work here in indigenous culture, Zulu culture, for instance, in this case, you know, brings us back to that you know, nature-based, more rhythmic nature-based uh culture. I'm just you're sort of just kicking those ideas up for me.
SPEAKER_00:No, I think, yeah, I agree. Natural rhythms and um, you know, universal tenants, quantum, you know, physics teaches us we're all interconnected. And that's part of the work is that it there's a magic in it and how things shift because it doesn't make logical sense. But it's about everything being when it's in its order, then it flows well, just like nature is cooperative, right? It's more might be more we got it, we got everything working well together.
SPEAKER_02:When we're when when we're in harmony with nature and there's a there's natural balance. Oh, that's an interesting becoming less and less uh normative in Western culture. But anyway, so putting the rubber of the road for the constellations therapies and joining them astrologically is kind of our next step for this particular program. And tell us a little bit about this uh picture we have have here.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so we're gonna tell the story of Clarence today, who I was always fascinated by. So I'm gonna try to make this as concise as possible.
SPEAKER_02:So this is a this is a family, uh this is your family lineage, is that right?
SPEAKER_00:This is my family lineage, correct. So Clarence was my uncle, or is my uncle, I guess, right? So he is on my on my paternal side, my father's brother. So Clarence was the firstborn into a farming family in a small.
SPEAKER_02:Is this Clarence here? The the the this older Yeah, that's Clarence.
SPEAKER_00:And that he's sitting next to his sister, um, my Aunt Dolores, who is about to turn 102, so she's still with us.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Wow, this is it. This is Aunt Dolores uh a little earlier than 102. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. Right, right. So um, so Clarence uh at age five, he was holding on to his father's hand, and they were at uh they were attending a uh community funeral. So in a very small town, you know, so short distance travel away from where his home would have been. And he let go of his father's hand and he ran across the road and was struck by a car and killed right in front of the room. Front of his parents.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I had heard the story, you know, I was always fascinated by, I just I think, you know, I'm Scorpio rising. I have like this fascination with death. And I I just couldn't square, you know, like why did he run? Why did he let go of his dad's hand? Why, why did he die? Why did he, you know, why was he killed in front of his parents? You know, it just would like ruminate in my mind. I didn't really talk about it a lot, but I always kind of thought about him. And the thing about it is, and this is um, so I, unbeknownst to myself, um became or was entangled in his, we call it entanglement in a family constellation work with his energy. And which is not to say that I reincarnated as Clarence. So I just want to make that kind of clear. Um, but what happened was you can imagine, you know, how grief-stricken the family was. And this is, you know, somebody probably they they thought was going to take over the family farm. So my dad said that we they never spoke about Clarence. There was no pictures of Clarence in the house. Clarence was just kind of and not out of, so he was excluded from the family system, but not out of any malice. It was out of grief, it was out of love, it was out of too much love, it was out of too much pain. So in family constellation systems, one of the orders is that everybody has a right to belong. So Clarence's energy was out of the family system. So, what will happen is there will come in a descendant that takes up the baton to say, I'm gonna bring Clarence back into the family system. I had no idea that that was me until I found family constellation work and I attended a workshop, and my teacher Barry would talk about how everybody, you know, you can bring in somebody's energy by just bringing them into what we call a constellation session, which would basically just have bring in a representative for Clarence and put him in his proper order. Because now he was the firstborn, right? So that's that's a birth order. So after he passed, you know, I grew up thinking that Aunt Dolores was the oldest one, right? But she really wasn't the oldest one in that family.
SPEAKER_02:Is this Aunt Dolores in the picture again?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that was Aunt's Aunt Dolores in the picture, right?
SPEAKER_02:Quicker than I am. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So in a sense, like her energy became like, okay, now I'm the oldest, right? But in a sense, because Clarence had been had been excluded from the family system, unbeknownst to anybody. And so, but she's not in her proper order, too, you know. So this is how things can get out of order very easily, you know.
SPEAKER_02:And for no, it it brings forgive me, it brings to mind, you know, with with twins, uh, let's say identical twins, uh, it's very normative for one twin to say to the other twin, Well, I'm the oldest in the family. Yeah. You're the you're the youngest, or you know, they they are very clear that if it's me a minute or two or three or five, there's the older twin and the younger one. And they they have all also those those sort of family positionings of the oldest child, the middle child.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I have twin. My oldest are twin brothers. I have twin brothers born four months four minutes apart. So Mark is the oldest, Mike is you know, second born. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02:Amazing. Well, that's a perfect illustration. They do they do they identify as one elder or one the younger, or do they have that?
SPEAKER_00:They have a little bit, you know. I think I experience Mark as yeah, they they both have that quality. I think Mike, I always viewed Mike as a little bit like wanting to, we always called him, you know, Ed Jr. He wanted to be our dad, you know. Uh, but Mark is a quiet, you know, leadership role. So yeah, I see the dynamics. You know, they basically have the same chart, and then that gets really interesting because then you get into what are their consciousness, they're a little bit different kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02:We're gonna have to exp we're gonna definitely go there in future sessions. Yeah. So yeah, your your story when you mentioned, you know, uh Dolores, who's now 102 in the photograph here, and uh and Clarence, uh, who passed at age five, as you say, Clarence was sort of forgotten out of grief.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, and therefore Dolores saw herself as the elder of the family, which she was f functionally, but you're suggesting that there's in the in the psyche of the family, there's something in the fabric of what was really happening. Maybe this also happens uh when there are miscarriages for certain some women.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, absolutely. Miscarriages and abortions and family secrets are kind of the number one thing in family constellation work. So kind of getting back to the story, I'm sitting there in this workshop and I'm like, this is such an easy constellation. Like, I can really help out my family. All I have to do, and I would I'd write to Barry and I'd say, I want to do just a quick constellation. I just need to bring Clarence's energy back in. And um, but it in so I this was in like a group workshop, but and so rightly so, Barry always would go to the I call it the five alarm fire, and like, what is the most, you know, profound thing that we can shift today? So I was, I never constellated this um disorder in my family. I never did a constellation on it. I never did it one privately with him, I didn't do one publicly publicly with him. So that's to me the most interesting part of the story in a way is because of immersing myself in the work and going to these workshops. Every family system has a clearance in their in their line, right? So what end so what ended up happening was um, so my mom passed, and then my we were gonna move my dad up to his cottage out of the family farm. Now that would have been where Clarence was born. My dad was born. I grew up in the house, you know. I I was entangled with Clarence, but I literally lived in the house that he grew up in, right? For his short life. And so we're cleaning out the family farm. I have never seen a picture of Clarence my whole life. And I, you know, didn't find one when we were cleaning out the house. We take my dad up to his cottage, and then my son wanted to pick up some family, some guns from the family. So we went back to the house. I thought I'd say goodbye to it. We go back to the family farm and we go inside. My my son's gonna pick out his guns, and I for some reason I walk into my dad's bedroom and laying on top of a bunch of pictures is the picture that is in this that slide. And I just immediately knew that's Clarence. And I picked it up and I went out and I said, Dad, who is this? And he said, Well, that's Clarence. I'd never seen a picture of him.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:And one of the ways that you can bring somebody back in the family system is even just to honor them, you know. So I grabbed the picture and I said, Okay, this is coming with us. And I put I actually just put it in his garage when we left. And I said, You know, I want you to, you know, I just I kind of just brought the picture in. I thought, oh my God, I'm bringing him back in, you know. And then the next time we visited my dad, he had this picture hanging outside of his bedroom window. He put it on the wall.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:And that so Clarence through bringing the picture back in, you know, and then um so I'll tell this piece of the story. So uh then when he left that cottage to live, you know, went to an assisted living facility where he is now. Um, he brought, you know, he didn't for some reason he didn't want to hang that on the wall. So I said, I want that picture, and it hangs in my office right now. Because that's like I look at it all the time. Um so how it impacted my life. So I was always the oddball out, a different one in my family. This is how I perceived myself. And again, I want to say it wasn't done out of malice. I don't, I there was a lot of love. You know, I grew up with Junamore Cleaver, you know, beautiful family. I have nothing to complain about. I just always felt like the odd one out. And then when I found my purpose, you know, astrology, my dad, I, you know, now father in a family constellation work is is he represents your work. So my dad's connection to my work is really insignificant. My dad would make very disparaging remarks about astrology. You know, what you know, I was in sales like he was, and then I now I'm an astrologer. What is this? You know, what and he would make comments, he would never ask me about what it is. You know, he's Catholic, you know, it was bad. And and so after what I really noticed as a stark difference is when he brought Clarence's picture back into his home, every conversation, every single one, I noted it. He it at some point he would say, Well, how's your work going, Lisa? Now, what is it you do again with clients? He would ask a question about it. And I was like, that was the stark difference. Is like the healing that that brought to me is all of a sudden he accepted my work. And so it's so important for your dad to accept your work. And that did not happen until we brought Clarence back in to the family system.
SPEAKER_02:We'll we'll have to uh we'll have to sh show my chart because you know your story of astrology in our culture. Yeah. Well, I think many astrologers, most astrologers, I I think you know, Bob Hand, famous Robert Hand, famous astrologer, I always say the Einstein of Western astrology in the 20th century, 21st, early 21st, uh, you know, he said that this this scientific paradigm has to literally die off before Western astrology or astrology will be able to arise as an as a sort of a Jungian, think of Carl Junge, a Jungian archetypal system that it is. Yeah, but most astrologers uh, you know, I've I've heard a lot of professional astrologers who talk about going into public forums and not discussing what they do, or saying that they're counselors, or you know, saying that they're life coaches, or uh just not saying it at all. I I certainly attend a number of astronomy conferences every year, and I sure as hell don't advertise that I'm an astrologer, although the word gets out in years earlier, it could even get ugly with astronomy conferences. But an interesting yeah, I hear what you're saying. You're saying that the father in the Western and maybe even in indigenous archetypes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's well, this is the order of love, is that the father would represent work.
SPEAKER_02:Does that mean the outer world inter inters intersecting with the outer world work?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So if a client comes to me and they have um and it's their work isn't flowing well, I immediately go to their father. And which immediately means I go to their son in their birthday.
SPEAKER_02:So maybe it's a time for us to throw some slides up for the the astrologers out there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so it just, you know, I I like the story, and we're gonna talk about more of the charts, but the the real crux of the story is that by bringing his energy back into the family system, and I and and literally I did it just by immersing myself in the work. It just naturally magically created this moment of finding the picture, moving it to my dad's house. Now I have it. It just it deepened the connection with my dad, you know, who just passed. And so now he passed in spirit, and I'm like, I'm good, because I'm good with dad, you know, we're we're good. And and it's just the peace and resolution you can get, that's just a practical. I wanted people to understand like, how, how, why would I do this? You know, what could this, you know, mean in my life? And it can mean a lot, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Well, absolutely. And and so uh it sounds like the healing part of the family constellation work is for the therapist and the and the uh the uh client um to together um gain a perspective, like the constellations, like connecting the dots of the star pattern, connecting the dots in the family system, um, both those dots that one can readily see, the brightest stars and the most obvious, as well as those things that are not as easy astronomically, so to speak, to see, the fainter stars or the stars that are in some way you know hidden. And I'm wondering, you know, now rubber to the road, how how as a family constellations therapist you you uh interweave that work with astrology?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I mean, I think we talked about it in the last episode. I think my chart is set up, you know, I'm really interested in human relationships. I've got that Mars-Venus right down at the bottom of my chart, and Aquarius, you know, that fourth house is family, right? And growing up is the different one, and now doing um family ancestral healing work that's in the in in the United States isn't that well known. You know, it's a little different.
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00:Um, my moon, you know, being in Aries, I don't do, I don't facilitate groups, I do individuals uh sessions. I don't know if I'll ever get to the group dynamic. That's a lot to manage. But I so the moon and Aries, I do individual constellations that's in my sixth house of work.
SPEAKER_02:And that that moon I might add astronomically is only uh you know seven degrees off the descendant, the western sky. Yeah. So that means that the the moon um just set, you know, like like 28 minutes, you know, um you know, before your birth. The moon recently had just set, you know, half an hour before your birth. The moon just set, and you know, as astrologers know, any planet that is angular in a chart is going to be a very important planet. As you mentioned, Venus and Mars at the bottom, and the moon having just set uh on the western sky. And the moon, um, astrologically, we take it to be uh I always say moon cycles, you know, like menstrual cycles, moon cycle. Um moon is family. Yeah, the moon talks about that emotional body of the family, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So you do family work in a in a this this seventh house is one-on-one. It's it's a it's a relationship the relationship part of the chart. Oh, yeah. Where we interact with others. So you do family work one-on-one with clients. Your chart describes this, you're saying.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think very much so because if you think about Aquarius being the collective, right? So the individual work that somebody does in their family system, the, you know, then the indigenous cultures believed that the healing goes back seven generations and forward seven generations. And so if you think about the impact you can have um from just one person shifting things, um it it's pretty, it's pretty significant.
SPEAKER_02:But well, so you're you're saying um well, you illustrated how your awareness of Clarence and Clarence's picture altered your relationship with your father when you brought Clarence back into the family fold, so to speak, that that was really significant between you and your dad, and your dad kind of opening to you. So where there was something unintendedly closed, Clarence was hit by a car at five.
SPEAKER_00:Right. So that's right, yeah, and that's Mars, right? That'd be the automobile.
SPEAKER_02:Well, let's go back to your chart for a second. So you're saying that your chart is mirroring uh uh the bottom of the chart, the family, the fourth house, which is the family in an astrology chart. Your chart says Mars. There's a there's an action-oriented or a martial event with family that has to do with your family roots. Is that what you're getting at? That has to do with well, I love this. You have your Mars action, or you could say the circle of spirit with a with an with an arrow, directed will, or the will of the f father, or the will of the family. Um is daddy at the bottom of your chart. So it says there's a foundational thing involving your father. That that in other words, this birth that this couple had in 1966, your birth date, this this this child that came in in 1966, your chart implies has some foundational piece in the family foundation. Your birth, your spirit, for your father particularly, has some foundational peace in this family, and that Mars is their action with Venus love and relationship. And then the black moon. I maybe you could talk about that and your thoughts uh what about what the black moon is. I don't know if you, you know, the black moon I always say is the apogee of the moon, its most distant orbit uh compared to the earth at any given moment. I think of the black moon myself as like the unprocessed, unconscious material uh or something that the family doesn't talk about. For instance, I know someone who has the black moon at the top of their chart, the career angle, and they are a hospice nurse. People don't like talking about death. And when your loved one is in the hospital or maybe on hospice, family members don't want to talk about death. So this person I know who has uh black moon, the hidden unc unprocessed family material at the top of the chart. Uh, she deals with unprocessed family material when someone's like on the deathbed and the family is there, you know. Um you have black moon at the bottom of your chart. So maybe I'm just kind of you know for me, I'm leaping forward here, like, oh, you know, unprocessed material in the family.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. And I think it speaks to, you know, the quantum, we're all interconnected, right? So as I uncover family secrets, or maybe, or I shouldn't say I cover other uncover them, but as I work with clients and it's part of those emotional patterns that they're not um, you know, actively processing, you know, like there's a healing that occurs not only for my family system, but for all family systems. So it's an interesting placement. I'm I think you know, the Mars and Venus down at the that Mars rules my ascendant and um Venus my descendant, right? And I remember just being so I would get angry about my dad just not acknowledging my work. I would get angry about it. I'd be like, I you know, I don't understand. It's not he's not interested in me. Why doesn't he ask anything about me? You know, I I so there was something really sparking me to clear this, you know. And so that was all before I found family constellation work. Then it all made sense to me. I'm like, oh, I get it. So we can fix this, and we did, and it and that's how I, you know, it's nice that I could let that anger go. You know, that's a lot to carry. And um so I think that uh it just speaks to um I think you know, having that at the at the foundation of your chart, it's a lot of what you came in, you know, for your work and life purpose with it being opposite the mid heaven.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I in in astrology one oh one, the ascendant we associate with self, uh Carl Jung called a persona. The opposite of ascendant persona is the other, or I always think, you know, the sunrise point where the sun rises in a chart and where the sun sets in our chart. Uh, sunset is about, you know, working all day and bringing it home and cooking it up in the pan, you know. So the seventh house is is the other and and interacting, coming home to one's life or one's spouse or one's family. Um so you're saying the bottom of the chart, the nadir, yeah, the opposite of the career angle, is the home. And your chart has a very powerful area of home that's occupied. Technically, the fourth house, astrology 101, says, is the angle of the home itself. Personally, the way I do astrology, I look at this sort of whole bottom half of the chart as the inner psyche, the inner world. I mean, it's it's astronomically not what's visible astronomically, it's what's not seen beneath the observer's feet. It's internal, not external. And so, you know, the metaphor is the bottom of our chart is is the hub, and it is where the sun is at midnight every night for all of us. You know, it's at the bottom of the sky beneath our feet. And so it describes the inner psyche. So I'm I'm seeing that this is a very powerful chart that says family is going to be a huge theme in this person's life. And I'm guessing you're saying astrology 101 would say that Venus, Mars, especially with Black Moon, that there's something particular involving that those planets are symbolizing about family.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think, you know, uncovering um patterns of, you know, that just kind of can trigger us. I think I think of the black melolith as like you can get triggered by that because you haven't really worked, you know, if you haven't done the healing yourself, what you what I think of it as like the unconscious, subconscious patterns, emotional patterns, but also, you know, being female, it's that side of you know what women do that isn't culturally accepted, right? Or that the patriarchy doesn't want you to do, you know, and it's yeah, I've got it in Aquarius, you know, wanting to do it differently.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, so that that Mars, Venus, Black Moon, and Aquarius at the bottom of the chart that it says that you either symbolically bring in as a soul, or there's something around your being in this family as a soul that's gonna bring up uh male-female Venus-Mars themes, uh role male-female role themes, and and that black moon, things that are hidden or uh or unexpressed. I mean, you called the black moon what what would how'd you word it, please?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I just I think of it as like our um unconscious or subconscious emotional patterns, things that can trigger us because we haven't really, you know, with where we react instead of responding to something.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I agree totally. Yeah. I agree because uh the black moon is astronomically the astronomical point, the apogee or apsis uh abscess of the moon in relationship to the earth. It's where the moon in its orbit is most distant at any given time. And since the moon is moving away from the earth every year, I think roughly an inch a year, the moon's moving away from the earth. You know, obviously, in in many millions of years, the moon will be sufficiently far from the earth to life as we know it shift.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So that black moon kind of talks about the the departure of emotional connection, you know, where there's a uh either an encapsulation or a disconnect. You know, they talk about the goddess black moon, right? Black moon Lilith being sort of in some ways unprocessed material.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and if I think about it, you know, I didn't talk to him about my work either. I just, you know, judged him for not asking me about it. So, you know, you have to kind of own your part in it too. It's like I felt like the different one, but did I ever really try to uh so I think there's a lot of judgment that I had about my family that got healed in this too, you know, like I could have forced the issue and said, let's talk about this, and instead I didn't. So, you know, hidden, right?
SPEAKER_02:But then it's another thing that we were in the last couple of shows as well, maybe our last program, particularly, you mentioned in astrology 101, the third house, particularly, is known as the house of siblings. Yeah. And here at the bottom of the chart, at the Nadeer, the family hub, there is Mars, um, either the god of war or of accidents. There's an accident with the son here, your father. Your father's sibling, your your father's sibling had an auto accident, died at age five. And that Mars, that that that phenomenon um with Clarence, I think you suggested, had a very powerful you know, theme in your family, and that you your chart suggests you've in some way embodied and heared it. You you said that you always were curious, you found the photograph, and what what's the what's the family of the constellations term that you were um interwoven, intermeshed?
SPEAKER_00:Entanglement.
SPEAKER_02:Entangled.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I'm just entangled in his energy, meaning um I kind of came in to bring it back into the system and feeling like I was excluded. In a sense, that was my perception of it. So, and again, this is not about kind of blaming or guilt or shame or anything. I mean, because it was my perception that I was excluded. Maybe I excluded myself, you know, but just the whole understanding and and the just the actions taken to to honor Clarence and bring him, you know, back in now. I feel like he helps me with this work, you know, as one of the ancestors that helps me with the work. Well, you know, so there's Mars, you know, five died at age five. That's a Mars cycle too, right? That's two Mars cycles.
SPEAKER_02:Uh so I'm sorry, I missed the first part.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Like Clarence died at, you know, Mars has like a two and a half year cycle, right? So he died at age five. That was his second Mars return almost, you know.
SPEAKER_02:So well, there's also an interesting technique that uh other astrologers, um, I. That each degree in the chart describes key ages for us as people. Oh, yeah. Each planetary degree, but also here, since you're saying you're identifying Clarence as, you know, uh being hit at age five. So at age five, the eldest child is hit and killed, Mars, uh, in a third house traveling of short distance travel third house accident. Right? That's what you had mentioned to me when you were uh first discussing your chart and Clarence.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And here it suggests maybe age seven is when Clarence's death was in some way encapsulated, you know, in this in this family experience. I mean, it might even suggest that. I'm just throwing things out here, uh, maybe inappropriately, but I kind of wonder, you know, I think you're saying uh, you know, the the um the family dynamic here and and how you embody Clarence or we're aware of Clarence, or brought certainly you you brought Clarence and his memory into the fore of your family. It was liberating between you and your father that you did that.
SPEAKER_00:Honoring him. And one of the ways that you can really, you know, because it's like how do you really heal all of this, right? One of the ways that you do that is by hanging his picture on your wall.
SPEAKER_02:Right on.
SPEAKER_00:You're just honoring you're remembering he's included, you know. So that's important to do, even with miscarriages or abortions. That can really settle energy is if you find a way to honor. It's kind of like when you know, I watch a lot of paranormal shows, and it's kind of like the spirits can be on, you know, it not at rest until they're honored some way, you know. Um, so it's not like we were receiving a haunting from Clarence, but I think it really settled the energy just to bring a picture of him and and to honor him in that way to hang out as well.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I realized your father was not born, I don't think, did not know Clarence.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, no.
SPEAKER_02:However, you know, your father's sister did, uh Dolores, did did know Clarence. And, you know, for all we know, your chart as a as a uh a birth chart in those planetary placements describe they they not only describe our character, but our character as an interwoven piece in our family. I think your charts describing, as you said, something significant with family, root cause in the family that involved Mars, involved third house of siblings, which it did, Clarence's death. Uh, that maybe for all we know, you even look like or you carry some energy. Maybe there was some karmic connection, as you say there is, between you and Clarence, that uh in some psychic way had an impact on your family or impact on your father. I mean, it is it is striking that you saw the photograph. Uh you brought it out from you know obscurity. You know, you have it hanging on your office wall now. Your father had it, I believe you said, for a period of time as well, yeah. So you you were the key factor to this this healing awakening for your father.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, I mean, I think if it definitely helped our relationship. And it helped me feel more connected in the family.
SPEAKER_02:So and as you say, your father then began to inquire about your worldly your worldly uh uh interactions as a as a practitioner.
SPEAKER_00:He would ask about my work every time I asked, you know, I saw him and I talked to him, and that was I noted it because it just cracked me up. I mean.
SPEAKER_02:So normally a son Mars would talk about son daddy Mars, a martial career, or son, daddy, Mars and a martial um exchange or perturbance or or or a martial rub. You know, it can be both a joining factor, a father who goes hunting with their son or daughter, uh, or a father who has some problem with uh with a child in some energetic way. I mean, you you did say you were a bit of the uh Iranian uh, you know, your outer world, you're you're a bit of the kind of uh uh the change agent in your family.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I definitely am. Continue to be.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So I like that role though now.
SPEAKER_02:Right on. Well, so here is Clarence's chart, and then you also have uh Clarence and your chart wrapped around each other. I don't know if you wanted to share uh you know either Clarence's chart, something some highlights there, or or your connection to Clarence and his astrological chart.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so um yeah, maybe it would be best in the interest of time just to go to the by-wheel of of the two of us. So um, you know, one of the there's a lot of really interesting connections. Um one of the main ones that I was kind of floored by is that Clarence's Mars placement creates a very tight yode pattern with my Jupiter moon.
SPEAKER_02:And the yacht or yod, uh Y O D, a Yacht or Yod is known for what?
SPEAKER_00:So I the way I look at it is uh that it I call it the the you know, the finger of man meets the finger of God. It's like an aspect of fate, if you will.
SPEAKER_02:Indeed.
SPEAKER_00:And so um meaning that in a way I think that I might have unconsciously or subconsciously always been drawn toward family constellation work because I knew there was healing in it for me and for so many others. And so his accident, his sudden passing, you know, was kind of my connection into clearing something for me and and to really facilitate um when you see the magic of family constellation work in your life, you're just really then like you be I kind of become obsessed with it. You know, I just I that's my favorite thing to do is do a constellation because they're always unique, different, and the person, you know, at the end there's always peace and resolution. And I, you know, but there's a lot of connections between Clarence and I. Um, and I think, you know, looking back at it, I just was always interested in that story, you know, like why? You know, that was the story that stood out in my mind. And so, um, you know, his Mars is on my Neptune.
SPEAKER_02:Um so we're saying that just for for the for the folks who are viewing, um, here's Lisa's chart, here's Clarence's chart, and Clarence's 23 Scorpio Mars, when we wrap that chart of Clarence around Lisa's birth chart, here we have that 23 Scorpio Mars on top of your Neptune. No, so you're saying that that's very spiritual work.
SPEAKER_00:I think this is work is very spiritual because there are, you know, if you could bring it into the scientific, it's very quantum because you're you're it's energy work, you know, and that's Plu, and that's I'm sorry, Neptune is, you know, energy work.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it is interesting that you have Neptune uh, you know, essentially rising or to rise in your chart, the next planet to rise. It suggests your persona, your identity of self is connected to Neptunian themes, the the unseen or unknown, or the spirit or spiritual, or philosophical spiritual.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And that Neptune in your own birth chart, as you said, is in a yard with Jupiter and Moon. That's terribly interesting that you see that. And Neptune also squares your black moon and your and your Venus-Mars bundle in the bottom of your chart. You know, I look at uh Neptune as where there is either confusion in the family or where there are secrets or things that are that are not told, uh, or things that are hidden. Uh Neptune here in the first means that's that whatever is hidden, not told, or unclear in the family, for you stands out like a sore thumb. You know, it's like it's right there. The the hidden themes of the psychology of the family members, your father, your mother, your siblings, the hidden themes that others don't really talk about, for you, it's like as plain as a nose in your face. A person so for you, it's right there. And it's interesting that um Clarence's Mars, you know, clearly in his birth chart, involved in some way, if we go back at his at age five, with his death and his accident. Um, that Mars of Clarence is on that Neptune highlighting what's not seen or known or discussed.
SPEAKER_00:And look at his and at the time, like his north node is is conjunct my ascendant, right?
SPEAKER_02:His north node, right. And so in a birth chart, astrologers think that the north node deals with dharma or um, you know, sort of karmic, it's a karmic connection point. Would that be fair?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. And was made on his well, sorry, we don't we don't have a timed birth for him. So that's the hard part in doing this work is that it's you know, when you're looking at your ancestors' charts, oftentimes you can't find the birth time. So intuitive, but right.
SPEAKER_02:We don't know if Clarence is a daytime baby or nighttime. We have no idea what his time is. We're just doing a 12 noon here, right? Right. But it is interesting that Clarence has a moon in Capricorn.
SPEAKER_00:Very close to my son and c in Capricorn.
SPEAKER_02:Very close to your son in Capricorn. You know, Carl Jung said in the in the I think it was a sampling of 720, there, about 725 charts that Jung did, Jung an astrologer, but not just not just Freud's sidekick, but Carl Jung the astrologer said that when there's a moon-sun conjunction, that is the uh connecting point between husband and wife. It's like one of the you know the primary relational connectors. Anyone who's got a in this case, anybody who's got a moon in Capricorn that a Capricorn person connects with is gonna have a bond, a real family, familial bond. It's also interesting. Clarence's black moon is is conjoined his his birth moon. And so Clarence has a black moon. Things that are hidden are not discussed conjoined Clarence's moon. Moon is also mommy in a chart. And Clarence's black moon-moon conjunction is on top of your sun. Yeah, uh, you know, are are powerful. So family themes, let's say, on your sun. You know, you're you're really tuned in to those hidden themes. As you said, Scorpio rising that you are, you know, you are tuned into hidden themes. So when when you do the constellation work, what you will typically do with one or two family members perhaps is take a person's birth chart and and a family member, and maybe you would compare them and wrap, you know, wrap one chart around another and look at points.
SPEAKER_00:I do that. So when I do a session, I will get their birth data, and then um whatever it is that you know, in family constellation work, you work on one issue, you want to positively shift. And so I will ask if there's anybody in their family system that has the same pattern. Sometimes like estrangements, you know, they can be, you know, my my mother didn't speak to her sister, and now I'm not speaking to my sister. So let's get those four women's charts and look at it, right? So you can start to look at the themes. Um, I also keep their the client's chart handy because oftentimes they will place, we talked about when they place the objects in, they will place the objects in in positions where they have a planet, you know, or they have a configuration. You know, one client just literally replicated her chart with her objects.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm saying, but you're saying by coincidence they'll place something.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, by coincidence, right? Yeah. So it's all of it becomes really important. And it's just a lot about following the energy of it and seeing, you know, that's the training that I received is I can when they set something up, I can see what's out of order. And then the healing statements, meditations, you know, um, just sometimes just forcing a movement, you know, can relax it, put it back in order, and there can be a resolution. So what I love about my story is, and I told my teacher, I wrote him a testimonial, I said, I this all got cleared without me doing a constellation. This is the impact of this work. It's like just by witnessing or representing for other families, this all magically, you know, why did that picture show up on the top of that pile on, you know, and I why did I find it? You know, it just it's all that's the magic of it is you know, it creates those conditions. It's almost like the spirit's nudging you, like, go in there, find that, you know? And you know, I I this all cleared up, but I didn't do any, I just didn't do a piece of work on it, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you that that's implying, as you said, the kind of the the quantum field of things that that um intention or action or mindfulness um can have a rippling effect across a family system. You're saying literally one family member who does growth work, therapeutic growth work, healing growth work, whether they are connected to that family member or not, it ripples across the family, the family psyche.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, maybe just the awareness of, you know, Clarence was excluded. I'm fascinated with Clarence. Let's let's bring Clarence back in. And maybe just the awareness facilitated all of this magic that occurred, you know, for everything to come back into place.
SPEAKER_02:And then I hear that what has happened for you is the awareness as an astrologer. As for all of us, you know, students of astrology, like where do you start when you study astrology? You start with your own chart. You know, that's right. Of course, just you know, we have our own chart. We can know ourselves and we know our journey, and we we look, we you know, all Western astrologers certainly start with looking at their own chart to understand the formula of astrology and the archetype of it. Um so you know, the beginning student of Western astrology might say, oh, well, if if moon is mommy and sun is daddy, and my son, you know, symbolizing father is there with Mercury, Mercurial Mental, and there with Mars, something to do with action or accident or you know, some kind of driving force. I'm sure you'd be looking for connectors, unconsciously, at least to, as you say, in the quantum field, to make sense of that pattern in your chart. Because that that star pattern, that map, that astronomical star map of when any of us are born, when you were born, shows us graphically. Your father and his uh his sense of empowerment uh around third house of siblings in some way plays uh plays out in your psyche and or in your family. Or maybe your father's uh understanding of you. You know, had your father actually um himself, had your father known Clarence, I would have thought even more powerfully that you might embody elements of Clarence, you know. Um but as you said, when you look at the chart of Clarence and you wrap Clarence around your chart, there are these um not surprising connections that astrology shows you to your father's past sibling Clarence. I mean, I I I think the chart uh birth charts describe um deeper themes that are percolating in a family system, whether they are consciously percolating, like people discuss it, talked about or not talked about. And I think you're saying that, yes, that Clarence, for instance, was not talked about. He was excised from the family memory.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So Clarence is an example in your family of material that's typical in the major most maybe every family.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And and oftentimes, I mean, at least we knew about the story, right? We knew the story, you know, when you have a miscarriage or um, you know, or you know, you have uh somebody's born, you know, you have a mother um has a child that it's not, you know, the father that's raising him is not the father, it's not the biological father, right? That child's in that biological father's system, and his when that's the case with adoptions, right? So there's a lot going on in family systems that you know that when brought to the light of awareness and worked with intentionally, it can really really be a positive healing force in a family system. I think descendants don't have to come in and and work this out, you know. So that's the beauty of it.
SPEAKER_02:And I and I think to me, I I uh I hear also um the idea that each person who who incarnates comes into some kind of environment, some kind of social andor family system, hopefully a family system that's normative, we think, but some kind of family social normative system that they helps them orient themselves to the world around them. And the chart describes that. That's the important thing. That Mars placement in your chart, at the bottom of your chart, you're saying for you was a um an awakening that Mars uh Mars deals with uh accidents, for instance, in the third house of siblings, in this case, you your father's sibling, your son indicating daddy in the third house of siblings, saying there's a there's a sibling theme in your chart that stands out. Um what I'm getting to is so I think you're saying, uh, let's say in family systems, if our grandparents went through the Holocaust, or our grandparents or great grandparents rather went through or great-great went through uh slavery, American slavery or British slavery, or whatever. I mean, the the the symbols in a chart will describe that in the in the genome. Yeah, physical genome and the psyche of the family, whether it's known or not known, that it's in the it's embedded in the in the genome. You could say maybe on the quantum field of soul consciousness, that these souls are in some way interconnected.
SPEAKER_00:And and we talked about several times epigenetics, right? So they turn markers on and off without altering the DNA. So when somebody does a family constellation session, they can either maybe turn the gene on or off, and the expression um is different. So, you know, you think about having a Holocaust survivor, you know, in the family and just the the energy thread of you know, fear or you know, just anger, terror, whatever it is going down the the line, um, you know, several generations, five to six generations down the line. You know, it didn't happen to that descendant, but it's in that, it's in that uh energy thread.
SPEAKER_02:And and astrologically, it's in that descendants chart.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, you keep going.
SPEAKER_02:That epigenetic piece, the the the psycho-emotional piece, the the the quantum field piece, the soul soul-to-soul journey. Ultimately, we're a bunch of souls together. Yeah, in the quantum field of souls connecting to other souls. The the chart describes whether we know as astrologers for sure exactly what it starts describing, but I love in your your example, this one that you brought for today, and I know there's more to come between you and I in your work and what you're sharing. Um that that Mars piece and the sun piece and the the daddy's sibling piece, his his sibling getting hit by a cart uh age five, and and the implication of the oldest child inheriting the farm, but now that cannot be, but your father did inherit the farm. Um literally, uh, these are all really incredibly powerful archetypes. And that your chart shows this, your chart's mirroring.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and we think of you know, we continue it further. He took over the farm, then he got out of farming, he became a salesperson. Third house, right? Mercury, Gemini. You were a salesperson, and I was a salesperson, so I kind of, you know, so I before I became an astrologer, you know. So it is, it's I always say to people like, I wouldn't be able to know this story by seeing my chart, but when I hear the story, it's the archetypes that you can you can really tune into and say, this is this was the expression for this person of how it played out.
SPEAKER_02:And the chart tells us there's you know, there the chart actually for astrologers commonly that we know the chart planetary placements tell us kind of where to look and what departments, what what areas of the family social dynamic, and what areas were were what areas were highlighted when this baby arrived in a family system. I think all astrologers look at our birth charts as our my chart, your chart, rather than thinking, oh, some woman had this an infant come out of her body at this time in this particular year, this particular season. That is what our birth charts are, after all.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So, you know, thank you again for for coming. Uh tell us a little bit how people can reach you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so um, so my company name is Future Echo. So uh you can reach me at Lisa at future echo2es uh.org. Um, or future or um my website is futureecho.org. I do astrology. Astrology is the basis of everything I do. Um and as a teaser for another episode, maybe is I have a very interesting story about following a soul's journey through birth charts and constellating it and putting things back in order. So there's a lot you can uh explore on my site. I have a number of different services that I offer and energy work and so we we will talk about that.
SPEAKER_02:So so Lisa uh Hagenbach at uh futurecho.org. And also, of course, folks, you know, please if you haven't subscribed to uh to my YouTube channel and my Apple Podcasts, subscriptions are helpful. It helps people actually locate the program and have it listed. So the more that subscribe, the more likely the program gets listed. Uh as choices for people hunting for astrology programming. And of course, uh Lisa and I both take clients, so you know, by all means feel free to reach out to Lisa, reach out to me for client work, or if you need to, you can reach out uh through our episode here, and I'll help connect you with Lisa. Thank you, dear Lisa, again. It's wonderful to work with you always. And yeah, I think you you just hit some other themes. There's some really cool things we can talk discuss here about charts and karma.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:All right, folks, we'll see you again for another episode.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you very much, and we'll talk and see you later.
unknown:Bye.